Russian alveolar trill (Advice Center) Language Learning Forum

Russian alveolar trill
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dayeti
Newbie
United States
Joined 4412 days ago
2 posts - 2 votes
Speaks: English*

Message 1 of 4

21 April 2012 at 9:38am | IP Logged

Hello all:

This is my first post ever here, and while I usually try to muscle out my problems on my own, the matter of the Russian alveolar trill has really gotten me down in my study of the language (now over a couple of years). It has even become a mental block, which discourages me at times and leaves me with a feeling of being incomplete.

To clarify:

I generally have no problem with the trill if it is either at the beginning of a word or following a consonant. The *real* issue, I believe, is two-fold:

1. Profound difficulty rendering the trill when it is around vowels ("через"); and

2. Moderate difficulty in correct pronunciation when the trill occurs more than once in a word (such as in "квартира" ((oh, how I hate that word)).

The good news is, "бутерброд" used to drive me nuts as well, but I feel confident in my pronunciation now (unless I'm fooling myself.)

These issues, particularly the vowel one, drove me in desperation to do research regarding the alveolar flap, as the softer "р" sound usually occurs around vowels, which is similar to Spanish (or so I think). My brain seems to process the sound in a similar fashion, and I thought that if I could master the Spanish "r" I would have an easier time with the rough Russian equivalent. This video was very helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uop7QdoDl40&feature=plcp&cont ext=C42d5a9fVDvjVQa1PpcFNcTzOQExw5cMqWFgcD9yjsoQNv0d_pTSY%3D .

I know linguistically that the Russian "р" is not an alveolar flap, but I'll be damned if it doesn't sound very close. Anyway, I'm sorry for the long post, but I feel this sound has become my White Whale (if for the worse).

PS: A Croatian friend of mine said that my Spanish "r" sounded close to the Croatian "r," which I take as the same as the Russian version.

Thanks.

Edited by dayeti on 21 April 2012 at 9:39am
1 person has voted this message useful

Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 4867 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes

Speaks: Russian*

Message 2 of 4

21 April 2012 at 11:47am | IP Logged

dayeti wrote:

Hello all:

To clarify:

I generally have no problem with the trill if it is either at the beginning of a word
or following a consonant. The *real* issue, I believe, is two-fold:

1. Profound difficulty rendering the trill when it is around vowels ("через"); and

2. Moderate difficulty in correct pronunciation when the trill occurs more than once in
a word (such as in "квартира" ((oh, how I hate that word)).

The good news is, "бутерброд" used to drive me nuts as well, but I feel confident in my
pronunciation now (unless I'm fooling myself.)

These issues, particularly the vowel one, drove me in desperation to do research
regarding the alveolar flap, as the softer "р" sound usually occurs around vowels,
which is similar to Spanish (or so I think). My brain seems to process the sound in a
similar fashion, and I thought that if I could master the Spanish "r" I would have an
easier time with the rough Russian equivalent. This video was very helpful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uop7QdoDl40&feature=plcp&cont
ext=C42d5a9fVDvjVQa1PpcFNcTzOQExw5cMqWFgcD9yjsoQNv0d_pTSY%3D .

I know linguistically that the Russian "р" is not an alveolar flap, but I'll be damned
if it doesn't sound very close. Anyway, I'm sorry for the long post, but I feel this
sound has become my White Whale (if for the worse).

PS: A Croatian friend of mine said that my Spanish "r" sounded close to the Croatian
"r," which I take as the same as the Russian version.

Thanks.

Pronunciation of a trill or a flap is not important. An alveolar flap will be correct
for a hard R. Soft R is a flap always. But it is important that р in через is a soft р
which is different from р in квартира.
Don't use words "softer", "harder" without any definition when you speak about Russian
and other languages. Anglophones tend to use words "soft" and 2hard" speaking about
sounds in their own way which is unknown to others because in many languages these are
official terms.
4 persons have voted this message useful

Merv
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5084 days ago
414 posts - 749 votes

Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian*
Studies: Spanish, French

Message 3 of 4

21 April 2012 at 7:03pm | IP Logged

In contrast to Spanish, I believe that Slavic languages do not distinguish between the flap and the trill. My Spanish
friend tells me that this is the one place where his Polish fiancee has an accent, because she trills almost all the rs.
Both are used (apparently the trill preferentially), but it seems there's an economy going on here. You only need a
flap if the r is intervocalic, or even at the beginning of the word. You need the trill if the r comes before a
consonant and oftentimes at the end of a word. Just don't overdo the trill and make it look like an exercise, be
natural about it.
3 persons have voted this message useful

dayeti
Newbie
United States
Joined 4412 days ago
2 posts - 2 votes
Speaks: English*

Message 4 of 4

22 April 2012 at 9:18am | IP Logged

I did not mean to confuse anyone with my usage of "hard" and "soft" -- I just lacked the ideal means of accurately describing my situation.

This has eased quite a bit of my anxiety regarding the issue.

Thanks for the help, all. Very much appreciated.

1 person has voted this message useful

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