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Standardising the national language | ||
Tags: Language Politics | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| COF Senior Member United States Joined 5641 days ago 262 posts - 354 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 1 of 27 25 April 2012 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
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France is one example, for years there has been a systematic attempt to encourage speakers of regional French dialects to speak "proper" Parisian French and do away with their rustic, backward dialects.
I've heard this has happened in Japan too, with the Tokyo dialect being regarded as the proper standard, and everything else being inferior and regarded as incorrect speech. I've heard that like in France, you won't get a job broadcasting in Japan unless you have a nice "Tokyo accent", can anyone confirm that? This has not happened in the UK and the USA though. In those two countries, regional accents are a source of collective identity and pride and many TV presenters and announcers speak with a variety of regional accents, not just one standardised dialect. On the whole, what are your thoughts on standardising a language and encouraging everyone to speak with the same accent and use the same style of language? Can it ever be a positive thing, or do you think its nothing but arrogant chuvanism which serves no purpose other than to further dig in the prestige and dominance of the capital city? Edited by COF on 25 April 2012 at 5:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5191 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 2 of 27 25 April 2012 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | |||||
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If you are going to be an announcer in Japan, you will probably need standard Japanese, yes, except in shows geared more towards entertainment. However, Japanese pronunciation doesn't tend to vary too much -- accent is actually the only real big difference and people are exposed to it all over media. Same goes for grammar. On the other hand, Japanese people are pretty tolerant of accents and dialects, but if you want to be taken seriously on tv...
In most languages, there tends to be a prestige dialect. It's nothing that's been thought out or orchestrated; it just happens. Therefore, it's probably typical for announcers in positions of respect to be expected to speak the prestige form of the language. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6966 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 3 of 27 25 April 2012 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
Be careful with this description for it might inadvertently reveal your bias about the preeminence of standard language.
It just eludes a simple binary conclusion or answer. I see advantages in standardization (either top-down with a language academy as in France or bottom-up without a language academy as in the English-speaking world) but disadvantages including the unpleasant tendency of making a language prone to becoming a toy for some coterie of pinheads trying ideas not representative or divergent from what a plurality or the majority of the community most often (or always) use. BCMS/SC (or French to a certain degree) represents what I dislike (more like oppose) in standardization of language since we see that the process readily becomes a proxy for applying the equation of language to ethnicity and letting politicians or sycophants assume a disproportionately large role in a language's development. On the other hand, Northern Saami represents what I like (more like support) in the process since for me as a language-learner it provides a body of structures and words which I can focus on assimilating knowing that I'd stand the best chance of being understood by the speech community and understanding their output. This short essay neatly expresses my take on the matter. P.S. Be careful also of assuming that the standard language is a proxy for the native speech of people in the capital city (there's also a related matter of dealing with speech communities which have neither nation-state nor capital city). For example, Standard Croatian and Standard Slovak are each derived primarily on some dialect spoken outside the capitals of Croatia and Slovakia respectively. Without the conscious decision to construct standard languages using what were otherwise obscure dialects, these would have been seen as markers of rusticism or "backwardness" by others (a variation on the tension between urban and rural). In fact natives of the capital city are often fierecely proud of using any idiosyncracy perceived as belonging to the capital, even if the supposed "peasants' speech" forms the basis of the prestigious or standard language. A little ironic, isn't it? Edited by Chung on 25 April 2012 at 7:05pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5409 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes | Message 4 of 27 25 April 2012 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The only language I have ever studied which has no prestige dialect or standard. Munster, Connacht and Ulster still are equal rivals.
PS. In Germany too, the prestige dialect and base of the written language is certainly not the jargon of Berlin, although it might be the capital now.. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| vonPeterhof Tetraglot Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4582 days ago 715 posts - 1527 votes Speaks: Russian*, EnglishC2, Japanese, German Studies: Kazakh, Korean, Norwegian, Turkish | Message 5 of 27 26 April 2012 at 12:57am | IP Logged | |||||
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Interesting that you equated the situation of Japanese with French. Recently I watched an episode of the Japanese drama "Nihonjin no Shiranai Nihongo" ("The Japanese [language] that the Japanese [people] Don't Know") that dealt with the topic of standard language, dialects and politeness levels in Japanese. There the characters who are professional JSL teachers state that in Japanese there is no standard language (標準語, hyōjungo), but a "common language" (共通語, kyōtsūgo). They believe that a standard language is a normative standard based on the speech of those in power that is imposed upon speakers of all "dialects" to artificially make everyone speak the same way, while a common language is a form that arises in a grassroots manner from the interactions of native speakers of various dialects, i.e. a Koiné.
In rather simplified terms they describe how modern standard Japanese emerged as a result of samurai and commoners from all over the country converging in what is now Tokyo, first during the Edo period and then after the Meiji revolution, and give some well-known examples of dialectal influences on standard/common Japanese (the polite copula "desu" from Tokyo Geisha speech, the formal copula "de arimasu" from Yamagata prefecture, the attention-calling interjection "kora" from Kagoshima prefecture, etc.). While the Tokyo dialect was the main basis of standard Japanese, according to them it wasn't purposefully promoted as the standard dialect and there are still some differences between the Tokyo dialect and Standard Japanese. I don't know to what extent all this describes the reality of the emergence of modern standard Japanese, but from what I heard it does seem to be a widespread point of view among Japanese language teachers. Also, while the Japanese state does influence language this influence mainly concerns the writing system, and even there many writers and publications follow their own rules and guidelines instead. The Japanese government certainly doesn't share the French Academy's disdain for anglicisms and loanwords in general, and their adoption is done in a largely unregulated manner - even the transliterations aren't entirely consistent. Edit: although it should be noted that some regions of Japan had anti-dialect policies in education that weren't phased out until the post-war period, most notably in Okinawa prefecture, whose "dialects" are considered separate languages by modern linguists, and Tohoku, a region with a particularly rustic image. There is a possibility that these policies were introduced by the Empire of Japan following the examples of countries such as France and Britain in their struggles against their minority languages (the dialect cards are particularly reminiscent of these two countries treatment of Occitan and Welsh, respectively). Edited by vonPeterhof on 26 April 2012 at 1:33am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Heather McNamar Senior Member United States Joined 4592 days ago 77 posts - 109 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Latin | Message 6 of 27 26 April 2012 at 1:29am | IP Logged | |||||
I'm not entirely sure that was the original poster's intent. I would like to believe the description was used to reflect the superior attitude of those who speak what is perceived to be the "proper" dialect. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| vonPeterhof Tetraglot Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4582 days ago 715 posts - 1527 votes Speaks: Russian*, EnglishC2, Japanese, German Studies: Kazakh, Korean, Norwegian, Turkish | Message 7 of 27 26 April 2012 at 1:41am | IP Logged | |||||
Edited by vonPeterhof on 26 April 2012 at 1:47am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Camundonguinho Triglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 4559 days ago 273 posts - 500 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English, Spanish Studies: Swedish | Message 8 of 27 28 April 2012 at 9:25pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I like the Norwegian approach. There is no spoken standard at all. Even in the city of Oslo, there are two different spoken variants: West End (snobbish, Danish-sounding accent) and East End (working class accent). Who decides what is more correct: jenten or jenta, husene or husa? In perfect world all possible variations would be given equal significance.
As for the written ''standard'' Norwegian, you can write it in 8 different ways, from the most rural variants of Nynorsk to Dano-Norwegian-wannabe Riksmål. look how you can write ''a small milk'' - ''the milk'' in Bokmål: ei lita mjølk - mjølka (radical Bokmål, close to Nynorsk) ei lita melk - melka en liten melk - melka en liten melk - melken (Riksmål, close to Danish) 4 different combinations, and all are accepted by the Norwegian language council as equally correct (since 2005). And there must be 3-4 more variants in Nynorsk. ;) It is dialects what makes Norwegian so interesting (and also very enjoyable to study). No one really speaks Bokmål (=Bookish, except from the royal family and some old ladies in West End of the capital). Edited by Camundonguinho on 28 April 2012 at 9:45pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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