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Learning numbers in your target language | ||
Tags: Number System | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| IronFist Senior Member United States Joined 6222 days ago 663 posts - 941 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean | Message 1 of 20 20 May 2012 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
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One of my least favorite parts of learning every language is when you get to the chapter on numbers.
Now, I'm pretty good at math, so it's not numbers that I hate. It's just learning numbers and number things. Also included in this list is telling time, days of the week, months, and dates. It's even worse in languages with two sets of numbers (Japanese, Korean). And Japanese also has two different ways to pronounce some of its numbers (shi/yon, shichi/nana). Don't say "shi," it means "death!" Unless you're supposed to say it, then say it. And counters are the worst. Who even decided those were a good idea? Like did someone decide that "if I just say 'one beer' no one will know what I'm talking about, so we better say 'beer one-cylindrical thing' instead! That's so much clearer! I am a genius!" I hate it when I am reading something in a foreign language and I get to something where it's like "August 18th, 1984." I just skip it, or say the date in my head in English. Do you know how long it takes to figure out how to say "1984" in the language you are learning? lol. I also don't understand why Japanese has kanji for numbers when every number I've ever seen in written Japanese was a Western (Arabic) numeral. The one exception to this is number of people, like "hitori" which is written -/\ rather than 1/\ (pardon my ASCII kanji). Is this a post WWII thing with Japanese? This post really only semi-serious. I do remember the math section in Pimsleur Japanese, however, where I would actually end up laughing as I tried to do the math in my head really quickly before they gave the answer. I know it's just something you have to practice at to get better. I actually like Japanese month names because they are just the numbers, it's not like you have memorize new words. Serious question: do people learning English think our numbers are super easy and awesome? There's only one set of number, and it's easy to count anything. Number + noun + s (unless it's one of our few irregular nouns with a different plural form). I guess Spanish numbers are the same way, too. Dos cervezas, por favor! I heard Russian numbers decline. Is that true? How many weeks does it take to learn how to count things in Russian? This thread makes me want beer one-cylindrical object. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 4915 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 2 of 20 20 May 2012 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
Since we use numbers every day, it's really pretty easy to incorporate that into your routine. Just gradually switch out your native for target while going about your day. As for days of the week, months and dates, I wonder if you realize just how much those are used throughout our normal day, too. Pick a subject you like. Find a blog in the target language about the subject. Every time you read that blog, or a comment on the blog, you're going to see the day of the week, the month and the date - and possibly the time - on every post. If you don't like blogs, pick any news site. Everything is tagged with a day, date and time. These things really are everywhere. Just have to pay attention. R. == 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| prz_ Tetraglot Senior Member Poland last.fm/user/prz_rul Joined 4644 days ago 890 posts - 1190 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Bulgarian, Croatian Studies: Slovenian, Macedonian, Persian, Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian, Dutch, Swedish, German, Italian, Armenian, Kurdish | Message 3 of 20 20 May 2012 at 10:16pm | IP Logged | |||||
Right! For me it's a problem even after several years of learning the target language (and yes, with English was no different). Edited by prz_ on 20 May 2012 at 10:22pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4629 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 4 of 20 20 May 2012 at 10:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
Oh yes, Slavic numbers are great! They don't only decline, they take different cases. After 'one' (один) and every number ending in 1 (21, 31,...) you use the nominative singular (21 книга - 21 'book'). After 2 (два), 3 (три), and 4 (четыре) and all numbers ending in 2, 3, and 4 (22, 23, 24, 32, 33, 34,...) you use the genitive singular (23 книги - 23 'of the book'). After all other numbers (including 11, 12, 13, and 14), you use the genitive plural (28 книг - 28 'of the books'). I forgot to mention that 'one' and 'two' take the gender of the noun. So, its один студент ('one student'), одна книга ('one book'), and одно окно ('one window'). I haven't learned to decline numbers yet, but I am really looking forward to it... Oh, and I have heard the case thing becomes even worse if you add an adjective. Icelandic also has gender determined and declinable numerals for the numbers from 1 to 4. But as the words for 'hundred', 'thousand', and 'million' are considered to be nouns, you have to apply gendered numerals there, too. It's þrjú þúsund (3.000), but þrjár miljónir (3.000.000). Oh, and I forgot about collective numerals in Russian and Icelandic. If you are counting objects that only occur in the plural, you have to use a different set of numbers. It's fjórir menn ('four men'), but fernir sokkar ('four pairs of socks'), and of course collective numerals are declinable! Then, there is Danish, Faroese, and Gaelic with counting systems based on twenty. This phenomenon also shows in French. 99 = 'quatre-vingt dix-neuf' = 'four twenties plus nineteen'. And there is Danish and German, which invert numbers. 23 = 'dreiundzwanzig' = 'three and twenty'. This phenomenon also exists in Shakespeare English. I read in a post by Professor Arguelles about this topic that Hindi numbers must be worst of all. Basically, their components are so melded together that they are not recognisable any more. As a consequence, you have to learn every number from 1 to 100 individually. So, to answer your question: Yes, English numerals are exceptionally easy and logical and learning different number systems is always a difficult task. EDIT: The thread featuring Prof. Arguelles's statement is here. Edited by Josquin on 20 May 2012 at 11:07pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6382 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 5 of 20 20 May 2012 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
For telling the time, FuzzyTime is a wonderful add-on (if you use firefox for more than 30 mins a day :)) Because of these things, with some pairs of languages, I know one language better in general but I know the numbers better in another one (for example Portuguese vs Italian). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| prz_ Tetraglot Senior Member Poland last.fm/user/prz_rul Joined 4644 days ago 890 posts - 1190 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Bulgarian, Croatian Studies: Slovenian, Macedonian, Persian, Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian, Dutch, Swedish, German, Italian, Armenian, Kurdish | Message 6 of 20 20 May 2012 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
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It's time to mention dual in Slovene ;)
But it's not as difficult as it may seem. At least for Slavs. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5551 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 7 of 20 21 May 2012 at 12:16am | IP Logged | |||||
You seem to be mixing up two issues, your frustration with the perceived difficulty and your perception that a foreign counting system is illogical. I agree that it can be difficult to get used reading numbers in arabic script in your foreign language correctly and not just take in the value and use English (or German in my case) subvocalization. But allowing yourself to skip them is the best way to never get used to them. Force yourself to sound out every number you read, and you'll notice that within a couple of days it becomes automatic. Also, in the case of Japanese (and Korean?) it should be useful to practice with a couple of numbers containing 億 and 万 (10^4) - it's easier to sound those out in Japanese than to convert them to the 10^3 system used in English, and that in turn should make you use the Japanese pronunciation as a default when reading Japanese. Also, it can help to make a game out of it, and to subvocalize all numbers you encounter in daily life like kids do it when they first learn their numbers. Or to start with a random number and subtract 7 until you reach a number smaller than 7. As for a the counting system being logical or not, if you complain about it to vent your frustration, the only effect is that you'll take away part of your motivation to get better. Maybe it is illogical. German's practice of saying one-and-twenty certainly is. But as a single speaker there is little I can do about it if I want to understand other people and be understood, and that's even more true in my foreign languages. Also, if I ask you for a bread, and you give me a loaf of bread but I wanted a slice of bread, it's my mistake for not using a counter. Being annoyed at how difficult I find the pronunciation of 893 in French or that I don't remember how to count slices and loaves in Japanese seems like a waste of time to me. Edited by Bao on 21 May 2012 at 12:19am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6694 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 8 of 20 21 May 2012 at 1:15am | IP Logged | |||||
I can tell you four-digit numbers (such as years) in German and Spanish even if you wake me up in the middle of the night, and (at least) numbers 1-100 in Chinese and French. I have less experience in other languages (and please don't ask me about Russian). English numbers aren't too different from Swedish. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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