|
 |
"Common" Spoken Arabic | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Lone_Wolf Groupie United States Joined 5131 days ago 60 posts - 117 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 1 of 48 06 July 2012 at 3:53am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hello Friends,
During my brief participation in the thread titled Egyptian Arabic After Pimsleur ,I had given the reasons why I think a person who is interested in having a "complete" knowledge and command of the Arabic Language should study dialect first followed by MSA. I had also expressed my observations about the fact that MSA is NOT spoken by native Arabs and how the oft repeated line that "Arabs from different regions use MSA to communicate" confuses learners of Arabic because this line (based STRICTLY on my own personal observations and interactions with Arabs) is basically false (for lack of a better term). Anyway, I am hoping that I can offer some beneficial information for others who are interested in Arabic. All over the internet one would read the same questions asked by those who are interested in learning Spoken Arabic.....which dialect is the most understood and/or used dialect? Which dialect would allow me to communicate with all Arabs?, etc. First, I would like to reiterate a couple of points that I had made in the thread above. First point, Arabs from different countries DO NOT use what is known as "Modern Standard Arabic" (MSA for short) to communicate with each other. At the very least, I have learned, that they may use a bare minimal of MSA vocabulary but ONLY if they feel as though there are no other Colloquial options to serve their purposes during conversation. But when they do go to any of the MSA vocabulary they are doing what is known as "Code Switching" where they go from their native dialect to something else. HOWEVER, that is not the primary type of code switching they will go to. The Primary type of code switching they will go to (within the realm of Arabic language) is to first "accommodate" the person they are speaking to by using vocabulary and structures that are the features of the OTHER PERSON'S dialect. In fact, I believe another participant in the thread I linked to above pointed this out when he was in Yemen learning Arabic and there were Arabs from different countries there who were his friends and how they accommodated each others' dialects during their conversations and interactions. When this isn't sufficient (which is very rare) then they will "Egyptianize" or "Levantinize" their speech for the sake of clarity. (This was a complete surprise to me). The "Egyptianization" of speech was explained to me by an Arab friend of mine and according to him it is almost as common as the "dialect accommodation" that I just pointed out. The "Levantinization" of speech I had read in a study by Professor Sonia Shiri which I will be getting to in a moment. The second point I wish to reiterate is that we know that MSA is nowhere near a common spoken variety even among Arabs because we all know that if we would go to any Arabic speaking country and try to use MSA we would be lost and confused. The conventional wisdom of this situation is that a lot of Arabs would "understand" you but they will not reply to you in MSA, they would reply in their dialect. It is unnatural and just plain difficult for an Arab to try to hold a conversation in MSA, except of course for Media Presenters and Intellectuals. But if MSA is such a common way of speaking for all Arabs then why do we have the problem of them not replying in MSA if they speak it? And that's IF they understand you because not every Arab understands MSA. So what, Arabs only use MSA with other Arabs but not with non Arabs who also know MSA? I seriously doubt that. Another way we know that native Arabs DO NOT use MSA to speak with one another is the fact that we ALWAYS read on the internet (and what I am told by my Arab associates) how they sometimes have a hard time understanding other Arabs from different countries and how it takes a while to adjust and understand each other. But if the Arabs speak in MSA with other Arabs from different countries then this conversation of "difficulty of understanding other Arabs" would never develop. They would just go to MSA and not have to worry about misunderstandings due to dialect differences. Right? But They Don't!!! And the reason they don't is because most Arabs only have a listening comprehension ability for MSA at best. All we have to do is go to the Arabic Word Reference Forums to read the comments by the native Arabs there about how difficult it is to understand each others dialects and how they must really listen intently and "key in" on what the other person is saying. THAT'S what you'll read there. But what you WILL NOT read there is the native Arabs saying that they have no problem communicating with other Arabs because they just use MSA in their conversations and problem solved. So bottom line, we have to start correcting the situation and spread the message that the popular lines of "Arabs from different countries use MSA to communicate" and "You can go anywhere in the Arab world and use MSA" and "All Arabs understand MSA" are untrue and only serve to further confuse the situation and learners of the language. So, which dialect or dialect(s) would serve as a "common" or "universal" dialect? Well I think the "hint" to that question was already given when it is revealed that Arabs from different countries would "Egyptianize" and/or "Levantinize" their speech when conversing. I would like to bring your attention to a study I had read titled Arabic In The USA by University of Arizona Professor Sonia Shiri. If you all would read from the last paragraph of page 7 up to the second paragraph of page 8 of the link Arabic in The USA, Mrs. Shiri explains in a clear and concise manner the practices of code switching, dialect accommodation and the Egyptianization and Levantinization of Colloquial Speech. In relation to the "Levantinization" of Colloquial Speech, I remember years ago that my wife and I had two friends from Turkey who were husband and wife. The wife (whose name is Bennaaz) spoke fluent Syrian dialect and I know she also knew some MSA as well. Her proficiency in Syrian dialect may have been Geographical and Political due to Syria and Turkey being next door neighbors for the most part. One day I was hanging out with my friend from Morocco whose name is Momin and while downtown we had run into my wife's Turkish friend Bennaaz. After introducing Momin and Bennaaz to each other I had informed Momin that Bennaaz was pretty good in speaking Arabic. Those two held about a 5 minute conversation in Arabic before Bennaaz had to be on her way. Now I'll say this much...my friend Momin was quite weak in MSA and this was verified when he had trouble reading a book that was in MSA and he got frustrated and put the book down. Maybe a week later I had bought an English - Arabic dictionary as a gift for him and the Arabic was MSA. He told me that he could not use the dictionary because he did not understand the Arabic words that were in it and he "specifically" asked me to find a dictionary of English and Moroccan Arabic.Oh yeah, he also apologized and showed much regret and sorrow for his lack of MSA abilities. Soooooo, if he was poor in MSA then WHAT type of Arabic was he speaking with my friend Bennaaz? I have since lost contact with both of them because Bennaaz and her husband had moved to Canada and I don't know where Momin had moved to. But I wish they were both available so that they can confirm which variety of Arabic they were using when they were holding their short conversation. I was impressed with Bennaaz because at that time I was a beginner in Moroccan dialect and only knew some MSA but Bennaaz demonstrated solid fluency in her exchange with Momin. I was actually a little jealous that she had abilities that I didn't have yet :-) So, BOTTOM LINE if you wish to be able to converse with as many Arabs as possible then, based upon my research and observations, you will have to attain proficiency in as many spoken dialects as you possibly can. Apparently one can do no wrong if he or she has spoken proficiency in Egyptian and Levantine dialects. My advice, choose one dialect that will be your base dialect and strive to gain fluency in that dialect. Once you are confident that you are "fluent" in your dialect of choice it is then that you will want to expose yourself to other spoken dialects. I am guessing that is how native Arabs know how to "accommodate" in other dialects when conversing; because they have been "exposed" to other dialects in one form or another. I am not certain of this, but I am also guessing that being fluent in one dialect while having access to dictionaries of other dialects may help in that "exposure" department along with other things. Then there is always learning and memorizing the vocabularies and structures that are widespread in many dialects. A book which sets you on this very journey is Barron's Arabic At A Glance. This book has an English to Arabic and Arabic to English dictionary in the back in which they give the vocabularies for Egyptian dialect supplemented by alternative vocabularies that are common in most other spoken dialects. It is far, far from exhaustive but gives a good idea on one way in which a person may seek to gain proficiency in Spoken Arabic in as widely a manner as possible. Best Regards, L.W. Edited by Lone_Wolf on 06 July 2012 at 5:53am 11 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| fiolmattias Triglot Groupie Sweden geocities.com/fiolmaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6514 days ago 62 posts - 129 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, Arabic (Written) | Message 2 of 48 06 July 2012 at 7:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
I couldn't really agree less :)
My experience is that MOST arabs understand MSA and MANY understand levantine, but also that MOST can fake MSA, combined with their own dialect, but FEW can combine levantine with their own dialect. While I am far from fluent in MSA, I understand a great deal of leventine and Egypt dialects. Even tho I never studied either of them. I just talk to them in MSA, and ask them to speak slovely, and so far I have NEVER met anyone that is impossible to understand for me. The Iraqi dialect is even easier to understand. The Tunisians on the otherhand is just to hard for me to understand. It is just mumbo jumbo with a few words too far in between for me to comprehend. Luckily I have yet to meet one that is not practically fluent in MSA from Tunisia. Edited by fiolmattias on 06 July 2012 at 1:04pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4463 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Spanish*, Guarani*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew | Message 3 of 48 06 July 2012 at 7:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Very well said, Lone Wolf. :)
Arabic is indeed an interesting language to explore due to all the variations and the diglossia. The only part I would slightly disagree with is the "learn dialect first part". If one is planning to focus entirely on one dialect, then yes, it wouldn't matter whether one starts with MSA or the dialect, especially if it's a dialect with more resources such as Egyptian. However, if one is interested in several dialects, MSA is an excellent base to have, not just because of the lexicon or common roots, but because of the overall strong foundation that it lays between dialects, even from relatively divergent ones such as Maghrebi. However, it also depends on someone's goals, and I'm certainly not trying to say that going from dialect to dialect without MSA is impossible, just a little less smooth. :) From my experience: When I finished my main studying of MSA after 3-4 years, I tried Moroccan, but due to lack of resources, I decided to switch to Egyptian instead, which had a few more (though still not a lot) reliable resources. When I started, I understood only about 40% of the Egyptian conversations my Egyptian friends would have, a little more if they slowed down to accomodate to me. I studied Cairene for some months and then had an opportunity to visit Alexandria, and found that my knowledge of Cairene was very useful, I understood at least 70% of what was going about, though with immersion I definitely improved. Later, I moved to Moroccan, which was a jump, but I still found that much of the vocabulary was similar, just change in rhythm, and of course, French and Berber loan words. Grammatically, there were some differences but overall, I found that even MSA and Egyptian helped with Moroccan. My third (and really last) dialect was Levantine, and I found it to be a much smoother transition. In reality, it was a matter of recognizing pronunciation changes, a few vocab changes, and exposure. I later started looking at Iraqi, Gulf, and Hijazi, but found that I didn't really need to study these much. I understood most of these spoken dialects with just my command of the others, and for some, it was a matter of a little exposure. I might continue writing about my experiences here, but I won't digress for now. :) 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| decamillisjacob Newbie Canada Joined 4557 days ago 38 posts - 63 votes | Message 4 of 48 06 July 2012 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
TV and pop music has borken down a lot of the dialect communication barrier.
A lot of Arabs have access to satellite dishes, meaning that you can watch a Damascus soap opera while sitting in your Cairo living room or listen to Lebanon's Fairouz while working Morocco's Fez. Educated, literate Arabs, will use a form of Arabic that is half MSA and half dialect when talking to eachother. Never pure MSA. You see this even on news broadcasts now. The Maghreb in general tends to pose a problem for the the rest of the Middle East because of the massive overtones of Berber and French mixed in with their dialects, plus there is limited broadcasting of Algerian and Morrocan TV into the rest of Middle East itself. But, Arabs can adapt quickly. The trick is more so for non-native Arabic speakers.... one's ears have to tune into one local dialect first before jumping into another, only because one isn't used to it. Edited by decamillisjacob on 12 July 2012 at 7:57am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4714 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 5 of 48 06 July 2012 at 10:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
A few months ago I played one of my Maghrébi-Arabic recordings at my favorite lunch spot, which is run by a Lebanese-Armenian family. The father insisted it was normal standard Arabic. His sister said it wasn't even close to MSA. The son said he couldn't understand a word.
Another time I played a podcast in "standard spoken Arabic" for an Egyptian friend. He said it was Saudi, and not standard at all, and that he hated the dialect but could understand it. This same friend said he liked the Lebanese accent the best, and was clear that he considered it an 'accent' and not a 'dialect.' He considered the Arabic of Libya and Tunisia to be a dialect, and felt that Moroccan was almost another language. Meanwhile, another friend from Lebanon insists that "Lebanese" should be considered its own language, and is most definitely not a dialect. --- So I ask you: how are any of us outside of the Middle East supposed to make any sense of this at all, when native speakers don't even agree? 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4463 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Spanish*, Guarani*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew | Message 6 of 48 06 July 2012 at 10:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
@kanewai: The Arab World, as anybody knows, covers a vast area, and there will always be different perceptions among different Arabs from different regions, countries, and even cities. I wouldn't worry excessively about making sense of it - it may be a complex situation but it's not necessarily bleak.
I agree that media has a lot to do with how well Arabs understand one another's dialects. Egyptian and Levantine are highly intelligible currently, due to several factors, the main ones being A) the dialects are not dramatically different, linguistically speaking, and of course B) both are well represented in the media, so they have become familiar with one another through that. Hijazi (especially urban varieties) is also interesting. It borrows a lot from Egyptian, Levantine, and other Saudi dialects. Furthermore, some dialects have started increasing their media presence over the past few years, such as the Gulf dialects. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Lone_Wolf Groupie United States Joined 5131 days ago 60 posts - 117 votes Speaks: English* | Message 7 of 48 06 July 2012 at 10:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
I think you misunderstood me. I said that from my personal experiences (particularly in Morocco) A LOT of Arabs do not understand MSA. I did not say MOST Arabs do not understand MSA. But my major point concerning MSA is that it is basically useless for casual talk and conversation because even if you have an Arab who understands MSA the problem is still of YOU understanding THAT ARAB because he doesn't speak at all in MSA. I think the fact that Arabs DO NOT converse in MSA is pretty much indisputable.
I had addressed this in my post when I pointed out that when Arabs "Code Switch" they may sometimes resort to MSA vocabulary. Notice I used the word resort because their first choice of code switching is what I pointed out that is called "Dialect Accommodation". I have witnessed this strategy with my own eyes and ears.
It is becoming more and more common for Arabs to understand Levantine dialects and the Levantine dialects (Syrian in particular) have a reputation for being effeminate as compared to the other spoken dialects. Knowing some Levantine as well as some Egyptian and Moroccan dialects I know why this is so. But the study by Dr. Sonia Shiri does not suggest that Arabs make it a point to "Levantinize" their speech but that it turns out that way when making dialect accommodations and sometimes relying on some MSA vocab (but not the grammatical structures of MSA). I believe this is due to three reasons: 1). The Levantine Dialects (between the four of them) have a lot of vocabulary that is shared by most of the other Middle Eastern dialects. 2).Syrian in particular (Damascus dialect) uses quite a bit of MSA vocabulary. There is a reason for this as well but that is a whole 'nother topic and I wish not to digress. 3). Thanks to Syrian, Jordanian and Lebanese television as well as the ongoing diaspora of The Palestinians, many Arabs have become accustomed to the Levantine dialects and can now use them as a sort of "Lingua Franca" in the same manner that they will do with Egyptian dialect. Many people may not be aware of this but Syrian and Lebanese television and entertainment are increasingly challenging Egypt's role as the dominant television and entertainment producers among the Arabs. Of course Egypt is still #1 but I am merely pointing out the challenge to Egypt's position by Levantine entertainment
Please explain to me HOW you can understand a dialect that you NEVER studied before. If you've NEVER studied either dialect then HOW can you understand and respond to expressions such as "B-Khattrak" or "Izzayik" if you haven't studied them before? Neither one of these expressions are MSA expressions.
Again, HOW?
I wouldn't call it "Mumbo Jumbo" it is simply a dialect among dialects. Arabic itself can sound like "Mumbo Jumbo" to the untrained ear. But what I am having a hard time with is your last statement:
Sooooo, every Tunisian you have ever met so far just happen to be practically "fluent" in MSA? The Moroccans are known for their language forte and I for one would say that they are a gifted people when it comes to being multi-lingual. But when I was in Morocco I had come across plenty of Moroccans who did not know MSA. One person (whose name is Momen from Morocco) was a really good friend of mine. I have seen him converse with Libyans, Egyptians and a Jew from Palestine. But I know for an absolute fact that he stunk in MSA and he seemed to even be ashamed of it. But every Tunisian you've met were "fluent" in MSA? Every one of them? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| decamillisjacob Newbie Canada Joined 4557 days ago 38 posts - 63 votes | Message 8 of 48 06 July 2012 at 10:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
You make a good point. I suppose it is more individual than anything. Arabs do have a tendency to talk to Arabs only of their own country---Palestinians with Palestinians, Lebanese with Lebanese, Saudis with Saudis. But, that isn't to say that a lot of them aren't exposed to other dialects. Fairouz is a beautiful example---there isn't a country in the Arab world that doesn't know, to some degree, the music of Fairouz, and she sings entirely in Lebanese Arabic (or Lebanese). Om Kalsoum, an Egyptian songstress, has much the same touch too. It's a matter of personal background then... if an Arab is well travelled, his/her exposure and comprehension of other dialects will be far better than one has limited inter-Arab travelling experience, or, how much pan-Arab television they watch. Edited by decamillisjacob on 12 July 2012 at 7:58am 1 person has voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
