Register  Login  Active Topics  Maps  

Shared Vocabulary in Slavic Languages?

 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room Post Reply
34 messages over 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5  Next >>
liddytime
Pentaglot
Senior Member
United States
mainlymagyar.wordpre
Joined 5145 days ago

693 posts - 1328 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Galician
Studies: Hungarian, Vietnamese, Modern Hebrew, Norwegian, Persian, Arabic (Written)

 
 Message 1 of 34
21 July 2012 at 1:14am | IP Logged 
Does anyone know of any websites or links who compare the percentages of shared vocabulary between Slavic languages? I have been combing the internet trying to find this info and I have been unsuccessful.

I am aware there is a brief table on this site but I was looking for something a little more comprehensive.

Note that I'm not talking "mutual intelligibility" because I know that subject has been beaten to death with several threads here. I'm more interested in pure shared vocabulary.

THANKS!
3 persons have voted this message useful



Julie
Heptaglot
Senior Member
PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5819 days ago

1251 posts - 1733 votes 
5 sounds
Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, GermanC2, SpanishB2, Dutch, Swedish, French

 
 Message 2 of 34
21 July 2012 at 1:53am | IP Logged 
I don't know if that's of any use for you but I've got data concerning the lexical
proximity between Ukrainian and other Slavic languages (based on Mańczak 1985). Mańczak
argued that one should compare vocabulary in parallel texts and not in dictionaries
because otherwise the similarity of the most frequent words is underestimated (so he
calculated all instances a given word, if I recall corectly). I don't have any
percentages, just numbers of words (probably of those in the texts that Mańczak
compared; I don't have the original book, sorry).

So it's Ukrainian vs.:
Belorussian - 469
Russian - 386
Polish - 372
Slovak - 313
Czech - 309
Serbo-Croatian - 296
Bulgarian - 283
Upper Sorbian - 247
Lower Sorbian - 205
Slovenian - 203

I'm pretty sure I've seen some percentages for various pairs of Slavic languages
somewhere on the Internet, though.
5 persons have voted this message useful



liddytime
Pentaglot
Senior Member
United States
mainlymagyar.wordpre
Joined 5145 days ago

693 posts - 1328 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Galician
Studies: Hungarian, Vietnamese, Modern Hebrew, Norwegian, Persian, Arabic (Written)

 
 Message 3 of 34
21 July 2012 at 3:43am | IP Logged 
Julie wrote:


So it's Ukrainian vs.:
Belorussian - 469
Russian - 386
Polish - 372
Slovak - 313
Czech - 309
Serbo-Croatian - 296
Bulgarian - 283
Upper Sorbian - 247
Lower Sorbian - 205
Slovenian - 203


I wonder if it might be common words out of 500 words??
1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 6072 days ago

4228 posts - 8257 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 4 of 34
21 July 2012 at 5:16am | IP Logged 
Here's something that I found here to use as a starting point.



Note though that it uses lexicostatistics which faces methodological criticisms among linguists, and if I recall correctly it relies on rather small samples derived from the Swadesh lists.

I think that part of the problem when looking for solely a quantitative representation of similarity within the group, one's conclusion on the degree of similarity can be affected by the register or subject used for the languages in question. One could affect the conclusion by straining to devise the texts so that they use cognates when different words (with the same meaning) would be acceptable or even stylistically more frequent.

I touched on this problem in this thread.

Chung wrote:
Here's a thread on WordReference that talks about Czech, Polish and Slovak and also juxtaposes a dryly humorous text in the three languages about shopping in Poland from the Czech and Slovak point of view.

lior neith (WordReference) wrote:
For comparison, the same text in Polish, Czech and Slovak:

Polish

Zakupy

Gdy coś jest nam niezbędne albo gdy czegoś pragniemy i mamy pieniądze, to robimy zakupy. Na zakupy można pojechać samochodem albo autobusem czy też pociągiem, w przypadku gdy do sklepu mamy tylko kawałek drogi. Zakupy robimy w sklepie albo w centrum handlowym, bo tam jest więcej sklepów w jednym miejscu. Pieniądze to zwykle monety i banknoty. Jeżeli nie mamy pieniędzy, możemy spytać przyjaciela czy nam pożyczy. Jeżeli mamy więcej niż osiemnaście lat, to możemy sobie kupić polską wódkę i papierosy. Nie możemy sobie kupić marihuany, bo handel narkotykami jest w Polsce nielegalny.

Czech

Nakupování

Pokud něco potřebujeme nebo po něčem toužíme a máme peníze, jdeme nakupovat. Na nákupy se dá jet autem, nebo autobusem, či vlakem, v případě že to máme daleko. Nakupujeme v obchodě, nebo v obchodním středisku, protože tam je více obchodů na jednom místě. Peníze jsou obvykle mince a bankovky. Když nemáme peníze, můžeme se zeptat kamaráda, jestli nám půjčí. Pokud máme více než osmnáct let, můžeme si koupit polskou vodku a cigarety. Ale nemůžeme si koupit marihuanu, protože obchod s drogami je v Polsku nelegální.

Slovak

Nakupovanie

Pokiaľ niečo potrebujeme alebo po niečom túžime a máme peniaze, ideme nakupovať. Na nákupy sa dá ísť autom, alebo autobusom, či vlakom, v prípade že to máme ďaleko. Nakupujeme v obchode, alebo v obchodnom stredisku, pretože tam je viac obchodov na jednom mieste. Peniaze sú obvykle mince a bankovky. Keď nemáme peniaze, môžeme sa spýtať kamaráta, či nám požičia. Pokiaľ máme viac než osemnásť rokov, môžeme si kúpiť poľskú vodku a cigarety. Ale nemôžeme si kúpiť marihuanu, pretože obchod s drogami je v Poľsku nelegálny.


floydak wrote:

I saw some theories on this forum, that Czechs and Slovaks do understand eachother so well, more becouse of the common history, exposure rather than becouse of linguistic issues itself.

I think, one might see from above example, that this probably simply can't be that case. Even someone with completely no knowledge about these languages should admit, that 2nd and 3rd texts are much closer related than any other combination.


In this instance, however one could manipulate the Czech and Slovak samples to make them seem more divergent. however the texts as they are seem "natural" enough to me and so I wouldn't suspect that the writers were trying to minimize or maxmize the divergence between them. If one wanted to be a "splitting" nationalist and make the texts appear less similar, one could as examples begin the Czech text with Jestli... but the Slovak one with Ak... or use v obchnodním centru in Czech but keep v obchodnom stredisku in Slovak or use the clearly Slovak lebo instead of pretože which is obviously linked to Czech's protože. However there's only so far one could manipulate the texts' lexicon since the inflectional endings in Czech and Slovak do diverge regularly anyway in a fashion that leads to the consensus that we're dealing with closely-related but distinct languages as opposed to pluricentric variants such as BCMS/Serbo-Croatian or national standards of German where the unique differences are concentrated in lexicon rather than morphology. Fooling around with the latter would set off wide-ranging changes in how the native speakers make grammatical distinctions.

I think that Czechs and Slovaks living so closely helped with passive understanding of each other's tongue and led to the acceptance of originally Czech terms as acceptable Slovak ones after these were modified to fit Slovak phonology or morphology (e.g. the aforementioned pretože under influence from Czech protože, diaľnica from Czech dálnice for "proper" Slovak autostráda - a kind of "Slovakized" Czech word). However I do agree that on their own, Czech and Slovak are fairly close already because of the similarity in the "building blocks" (they would probably be even closer if Bernolák's standardization had not been discarded in favour of Štúr's). As a foreigner I agree that Czech and Slovak are separate languages, but only barely (more or less to the same degree as I've found Bulgarian and Macedonian, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish, or even Afrikaans and Dutch).


Perhaps as a bit of an experiment, we could ask the other Slavs of the forum to translate lior neth's text about shopping by referring to an English version (not from the Czech, Polish or Slovak version lest it contaminate those Slavs translation by providing hints to possible cognates in their respective native languages for each of their translations. Then we could begin comparing the results.

Here's the reference text of the above in English:

Shopping.

If one needs or hankers for something and has money, one goes shopping. One may go shopping by car, bus or train in cases where the shop is far away. One will shop at the store or in a shopping center because there are more shops in one place. Coins and banknotes are the usual forms of money. If one doesn't have money, then one can ask a friend for a loan. If one is over 18 years of age, then he/she can buy Polish vodka and cigarettes. However one cannot buy marijuana because in Poland a store selling narcotics is illegal.

7 persons have voted this message useful



Vārds
Bilingual Diglot
Newbie
Latvia
Joined 3826 days ago

24 posts - 41 votes
Speaks: Russian*, Latvian*
Studies: German

 
 Message 5 of 34
21 July 2012 at 10:35am | IP Logged 
Russian
Quote:
Поход в магазин.
Если люди в чём-то нуждаются или чего-то очень желают и у них есть деньги, они отправляются в магазин. В случае если магазин очень далеко, до него можно добираться на машине, автобусе или поезде. Люди закупаются в универмагах или в торговых центрах, так-как в них множество магазинов в одном месте. Деньги обычно имеют форму монет и банкнот. Если у человека нет денег, он может попросить у друга в долг. Если человек старше 18 лет, он может купить (покупать) польскую водку и сигареты. Но человек не может купить марихуану, так-как продавать наркотики в магазинах в Польше противозаконно.


My try in Russian.
I just don't know how easy it will be to compare the text in Cyrillic alphabet with the text in Latin alphabet.
1 person has voted this message useful



Julie
Heptaglot
Senior Member
PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5819 days ago

1251 posts - 1733 votes 
5 sounds
Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, GermanC2, SpanishB2, Dutch, Swedish, French

 
 Message 6 of 34
21 July 2012 at 11:49am | IP Logged 
liddytime wrote:
I wonder if it might be common words out of 500 words??

I don't think so; I've checked the description for another comparison by the same
author, and it seems that he basically counts similar lexical items in a given text
(and probably uses texts of various length, as you can't compare the numbers from two
different sets of languages to each other, e.g. German vs. Polish: 565, German vs.
Italian: 407, German vs. Hindi: 236).

I've found some other interesting data in the same book: the ranking of Slavic
languages depending on the number of words that have their etymological equivalents in
other Slavic languages (again, it's based on parallel texts, these are absolute values
that can be compare to eacht other only). Mańczak (1999) uses the list to argue that
Slavs originally come from the area between the Vistula and the Oder River. Basically,
the ranking is supposed to give the answer concerning which language is the most
"Slavic" one.

Polish - 3823
Czech - 3688
Slovak - 3608
Upper Sorbian - 3369
Belorussian - 3343
Russian - 3311
Serbo-Croatian - 3309
Slovenian - 3205
Ukrainian - 3205
Lower Sorbian - 3013
Bulgarian - 2948
3 persons have voted this message useful



Medulin
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Croatia
Joined 3584 days ago

1199 posts - 2192 votes 
Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali

 
 Message 7 of 34
21 July 2012 at 3:29pm | IP Logged 
Croatian vs Russian:
I have never studied Russian, but I find written Russian easy to understand.
The spoken Russian is a different thing, sometimes in minutes and minutes of listening I can't understand anything and after that...a complete sentence I can understand! Weird!

Edited by Medulin on 21 July 2012 at 3:31pm

2 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 5513 days ago

9753 posts - 15778 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 8 of 34
21 July 2012 at 4:33pm | IP Logged 
Slaven Bilić gave an interview in Croatian yesterday and people were praising his perfect Russian XD


3 persons have voted this message useful



This discussion contains 34 messages over 5 pages: 2 3 4 5  Next >>


Post ReplyPost New Topic Printable version Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page was generated in 0.6250 seconds.


DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
Copyright 2021 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved
No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization.