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Modern Greek question (πιείτε, κάτι) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Mirkwood Diglot Newbie Japan Joined 4322 days ago 9 posts - 9 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Japanese, Mandarin | Message 1 of 5 12 August 2012 at 12:42pm | IP Logged |
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I am doing Pimsleur for Greek and noticed that when the speaker pronounced ~πιείτε κάτι (drink something)
the /p/ in πιείτε was rather like an aspirated p /pʰ/. I studied basic Greek phonology already and /pʰ/ is not featured in Modern Greek (though it was present in Ancient Greek). I went to Google Translate and listened to πιείτε and it was pronounced with a /p/ like I would have expected before listening to Pimsleur, but then when I tried "πιείτε κάτι" or "πιείτε <xxxx>" it was pronounced with a /pʰ/ just like in Pimsleur. What's going on? 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| embici Triglot Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4396 days ago 263 posts - 370 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, French Studies: Greek | Message 2 of 5 12 September 2012 at 5:58pm | IP Logged |
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I've been waiting for someone to answer you too. I'm not using Pimsleur, but every time I
hear the word "κάποιον" I hear what you are describing. I haven't come across an explanation for it. I hope someone can shed some light. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Γρηγόρη Tetraglot Groupie United States Joined 4241 days ago 55 posts - 154 votes Speaks: English*, Greek, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: German, French, Russian | Message 3 of 5 13 September 2012 at 8:09pm | IP Logged |
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It's not that the /p/ is aspirated, but rather that the /i/ suffers a phenomenon called palatization. In Greek, when
unaccented /i/ is followed by another vowel, it often is pronounced almost as though it were a hard y, or sometimes as a χ (depending on whether the context would make it voiced or not). Thus, the words in question would be pronounced as though written πγείτε, κάπχιον. This accounts for the derivation of για from Ancient Greek διά, since the palatized ι has completed overtaken the δ. In the Cypriote dialect, the palatization is so severe that is is pronounced as a κ, e.g., θκυο (= δυο), θκιάολος (=διάβολος), χωρκανοί (=χωριανοί), πκιος (=ποιος), κτλ. If you ask a Cypriote, however, he will usually deny that he is saying κ, since he regards it simply as the palatized ι. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| embici Triglot Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4396 days ago 263 posts - 370 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French Studies: Greek | Message 4 of 5 26 September 2012 at 1:35am | IP Logged |
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Thanks, Γρηγόρη�. And while you're at it... :)
Does the same happen with έχετε because I swear I hear what sounds like έχιετε? 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Γρηγόρη Tetraglot Groupie United States Joined 4241 days ago 55 posts - 154 votes Speaks: English*, Greek, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: German, French, Russian | Message 5 of 5 26 September 2012 at 5:05pm | IP Logged |
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The situation of έχετε is different. Τhe palatalization in πιείτε, κάποιον, κτλ., is due the the fact that /i/ is
followed by another vowel. In the case of έχετε, you are simply encountering the fact that the letters γ and χ each have two different pronunciations, one hard (=velar) and one soft (=palatal). This is parallel to the softening of c and g in Romance languages, or English words of Romance derivation (i.e., the difference between the c in canal vs. city, or the g in gusto vs. gel. In Modern Greek, γ and χ will be pronounced hard (=/γ/ and /χ/) before /a/, /o/, /u/, but will be softened (= /ç/, as in German "ich", and /ʝ/, something like a hard y sound) before /e/ and /i/. Thus even within the conjugation of the verb έχω, the χ will be pronounced differently for the different persons: Hard: έχω, έχουμε, έχουν Soft: έχεις, έχει, έχετε The same is true for a verb whose stem ends in γ, such as πηγαίνω, here in the aorist tense: Hard: πήγα, πήγαμε, πήγατε, πήγαν Soft: πήγες, πήγε This distinction comes instinctively to native Greek speakers and is taught in the textbooks that Greek children use in school, but the only time that I have ever seen it explained in an introductory textbook is in the textbook that the Greek state has created to teach Greek to the Turks living in northern Greece. As far as I know, it is completely absent from all of the commercial products. They assume that you will just intuit the pronunciation from the recordings. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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