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"On & a gente / ir embora & s’en aller | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4753 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 1 of 10 29 August 2012 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I find it interesting that French and Portuguese have generalized the usage of a 3rd person singular to substitute the 1st person plural. Did this happen independently or is there a VL (Vulgar Latin) origin to this feature?
In Spanish, such usage would be unthinkable. The closest analogy would be "Uno" as in "uno se acostumbra", but that is a very restricted usage and in no way can it replace "nosotros" in a general sense. It's much more similar to German "man", an impersonal "you/we". Does Italian/Catalan/Occitan/Sicilian etc have similar constructions? Also, in Spanish you simply say "Vete"/"Vayase", no additional word or particle. In French and Portuguese that is not really possible. You say "Vai embora/"t'en vas". 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 4970 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 2 of 10 29 August 2012 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
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In Portuguese we say "Fui!" (=I'm gone), but that's slang (and impolite).
You can also say "Sai!" (=Leave) in Portuguese, with no usual complement. Be sure not to mix up verbal forms, always use 3rd sg with 'a gente' and 1st pl with "nós", otherwise you'll make one of the most annoying and embarassing mistakes in spoken language by saying nós vai************* or a gente vamos********* I don't know, maybe "a gente" initially would exclude the person spoken to (that is, 'we' exclusive), it's just a thought. Nowadays I'd use 'a gente' more often when excluding the speaker, using 'nós' would let me stress all the time the person I'm talking to is not included. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4753 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 3 of 10 29 August 2012 at 8:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Yeah, I know. Both "A gente" and "on" are used with singular verbs conjugations.
But your statement about "a gente" vs "nós" is absolutely fascinating. Just to make sure, did you mean "excluding the speaker", or the person you are speaking TO? If you meant the first (meaning if you use "a gente" you are excluding yourself), that is a bid odd, but I understand the usage since I've heard it. But the 2nd option, especially if contrasting with "nós", would be interesting because it is a classic example of clusivity, and I did not know "nós" could be used to exclude the spoken party (in Spanish it is fully done by context). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clusivity Edited by outcast on 29 August 2012 at 8:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4472 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 4 of 10 30 August 2012 at 2:33am | IP Logged | |||||
NOI SI VA (Tuscan Italian) = A GENTE VAI (colloquial [Brazilian] Portuguese) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuscan_language#Noi_.2B_imperso nal_Si As for inclusitivy/exclusitity of A GENTE, it's very debatable*, and since most speakers don't make a contrast, you can generally say: A GENTE = NÓS. Linguistic surveys say A GENTE is the most preferred form in RIO, while in other cities NÓS was originally preferred in informal speech. But, since Rio-based and Rio-made soap operas are the most popular TV shows in Brazil, A GENTE spread rapidly all across Brazil. In rural (non coastal) parts of upper Northeast, humble people are more likely to use NÓS with the 3rd person singular: NÓS FEZ, NÓS FOI than A GENTE, A GENTE started as a carioca middle class expression, and many rural parts of Brazil haven't adopted it yet, so they use NÓS CANTOU instead of A GENTE CANTOU. In the South, the full NÓS (nós+1st person singular) is very common, but many times with different conjugation, so they say NÓS CANTEMO (for WE SANG) instead of NÓS CANTAMOS. Just make sure you use the natural gender, and not the grammar one with A GENTE: A GENTE ESTÁ CANSADO = NÓS ESTAMOS CANSADOS A GENTE ESTÁ CANSADA = NÓS ESTAMOS CANSADAS Many male foreigners use the feminine adjective with A GENTE which make them sound gay (since only some gay men speak of them using female forms). --- *You can find scripts of Brazilian soap operas and movies here, and it seems that both A GENTE and NÓS are used interchangeably, there are examples of inclusive A GENTE and exclusive NÓS, and examples of exclusive A GENTE and inclusive NÓS: http://www.roteirodecinema.com.br/roteiros/televisao.htm From the soap opera CELEBRIDADE: EXCLUSIVE NÓS: Lourival — Vocês ficam, nós vamos entrar! Fernando — Eu vou com vocês! INCLUSIVE NÓS: Ana Paula — (ajeitando a tabuleta) Pouco movimento, hein, Yolanda? Yolanda — Mas na zona sul há concorrência demais! Nós viemos ao lugar certo, Ana Paula. EXCLUSIVE A GENTE: Inácio — E Tânia? Já acabou o documentário? Tânia — Tô no finalzinho. Caprichando... Sandra — Quando acabar chama a gente pra ver! INCLUSIVE A GENTE: Laura — Não vamos conseguir, vamos ser presos, a gente perdeu, Marcos. Até onde nós vamos com a menina de escudo? You can find a nice article (in English) on A GENTE here: http://www.periodicos.ufsc.br/index.php/forum/article/downlo ad/7726/7096 http://www.periodicos.ufsc.br/index.php/forum/article/downlo ad/7726/7096 Edited by Medulin on 30 August 2012 at 3:38am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Spiderkat Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5616 days ago 175 posts - 248 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Russian | Message 5 of 10 30 August 2012 at 5:59am | IP Logged | |||||
Are you refering to the pronoun "on"? If so, we do tend to use it very often instead of "nous". A few decades ago the usage of "on" was still considered incorrect in writing and marked as a mistake.
Maybe you wanted to write "va-t-en" or "tu t'en vas". 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Edudg Pentaglot Newbie Brazil Joined 4475 days ago 16 posts - 28 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Italian, English, French, Spanish Studies: Mandarin, Swedish | Message 6 of 10 30 August 2012 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
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"A gente"/"Nós" are definitely used interchangeably by everybody in Brazil. People may even debate about it, but
no brazilian has this distinction engraved in the mind.
I disagree "fui" sounds impolite, it is just a slang used among young people. "Sai" instead can be used in a rude manner and I would translate it as "get out".
It is relevant to stress the example of conjugation of "nós cantemo" is used by rural people with no formal education at all. Probably by some speakers of one of the many many variants of the so called "dialeto caipira". It is very unlikely that you will ever hear it from someone who has grown in a city or has gone to school. Off topic: Just out of curiosity... Medulin, you seem to have a good knowledge of specific details of colloquial brazilian portuguese. Have you lived in Brazil, are you an academic researcher or your knowledge comes from personal interest and hard study? 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4472 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 7 of 10 30 August 2012 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I lived in Brazil for 2 years (2005-07), my aunt is married to a Brazilian guy, and I visit them every year. I studied European Portuguese for 2 years (2002-04) then I switched to Brazilian. ;)
I'd say that colloquial Brazilian Portuguese is the easiest Romance language variety to learn (except for pronunciation, which still is less difficult than the pronunciation of French), Formal written Portuguese is a different beast though. Edited by Medulin on 30 August 2012 at 4:57pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Edudg Pentaglot Newbie Brazil Joined 4475 days ago 16 posts - 28 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Italian, English, French, Spanish Studies: Mandarin, Swedish | Message 8 of 10 31 August 2012 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
Thanks for the info. It's interesting to hear your perception on this subject. I tend to think that colloquial brazilian portuguese is not that simple because of the fact that Brazil is a huge country, thus with many specific regional slangs. Anyway, I won't go on because I've already veered off topic here.. sorry OP.. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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