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Advice on Spanish and French/German/Por..

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justonelanguage
Diglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 4260 days ago
98 posts - 128 votes 
Speaks: English, Spanish

 
 Message 9 of 91
06 September 2012 at 8:55pm | IP Logged 
I'm already at a pretty high level in Spanish; I just need to stop being lazy and practice more/keep my skills fresh. I know a lot of slang but there is always something more to know than standard Spanish. I do intercambios on other websites and some face to face chats in Spanish/English.

Your suggestion about finding a Mexican physician/medical student is a good one; in English we have medical English and normal English. With a patient you probably won't say "clavicle"; instead, you will say "collarbone."

There is very little professional benefit for me in knowing another foreign language aside from Spanish. Heck, even Spanish is not very useful for my career. The real reason that I am so passionate about knowing a language very well is to teach my future children several languages. I'm planning on speaking English to them and my future wife will speak Spanish (She will be a native speaker) to them. Then, we would send them to a specialized immersion school where Mandarin and English are jointly taught. What do you think about this plan? I think three native languages is fine; it would be my gift to my kids.

Majka wrote:
Reaching a high C2 level in a foreign language and maintaining it is an uphill battle you cannot leave and return later without a penalty.

And I still stand by my answer, that reaching such level is possible during one year abroad. But you really need to start with at least a strong B2 or weak C1 level and work hard. True high C2 level needs also ton of facts not directly connected with language - native speakers talk about politics, sports and scandals and one needs this knowledge to blend in. Then, there is current language of media and teens - the fad of the day, if you want. And then there are films, books and series everybody talks about. At least a passing knowledge is necessary to stay at such high level.

In my opinion, there is something like C2+ level - not only "educated native", but somebody who is using his native language on very professional level - writers, good lecturers etc. But maintaining this level of competency is hard even in native language and very, very hard in second and third language.

People who can get several languages at this level are usually really making living from this languages - conference interpreters, some lecturers or perhaps exceptional journalists, some writers.

For you, one option for you would be a special language exchange - find a Spanish (Mexican) medical student and work together on your language skills. Such tandem work needs to be balanced - neither you nor your partner should feel that their part gets neglected. I suspect that finding a Spanish speaking medical student who wants to learn English at such high level wouldn't be an unsurmountable problem.
Tandem work is a trick conference interpreters use. Both parties are very serious about learning and know what they want and expect, there is nothing casual about it.

For your second foreign language, there are many possibilities.
The coldest way how to decide is to look for maximum profit. Which language will be the most useful in your job? Are you looking for research materials, further education, contact with patients, contact with other doctors?
Another possibility is to try out several languages briefly, to see which one speaks to you.

Me personally, I would lower the expectations - I would aim for a B2 level (in passive skills - reading and understanding - this can be done much easier than a C1 or even C2 level in active skills). Look where this brings you and then decide, if it is worth the effort to go further.

As for Spanish - I would try to get up the casual conversation skills. Get good in small talk. Watch sport in Spanish, find a sports bar with Spanish speaking patrons. And perhaps watching soaps would be a good investment, too. For speaking to patients, the medical vocabulary is not really big, most people are happy to get a slightly dumbed down version even in their native language. There will be few subject you will want to expand, but all in all, casual language will bring the highest "return and profit". Once more - don't neglect tabloids. Not many people admit freely reading them but they contain the subjects everybody talks about :)

Something very different would be conversation with other doctors or nurses.

I would really pick which parts of language to get at highest level first and relax about the rest. You will find the gaps very quickly and can then work at it. Set priorities and work hard on them.

1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6395 days ago
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Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
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 Message 10 of 91
06 September 2012 at 9:20pm | IP Logged 
justonelanguage wrote:
I just don't get it when some polyglots say that they have attained a higher level in a certain language when their time and focus is divided amongst several languages whereas people that specialize in ONE language focus on just one tongue.
Not necessarily. In many universities, if you major in a modern Romance language for example, you have to study Latin. And in non-English speaking countries pretty much everyone is required to learn English, even if they "specialize" in, say, German. And previously, it wasn't even considered anything special to learn Latin, Ancient Greek and French.

You'll see it yourself, it's very different when you're already fluent in one language. It's like a whole new world, you have so many more options, especially if the language is related to the first one. You also already know what works for you, though you should always be open-minded and ready to try new things. You'll see the similarities easier, you'll know how languages work, you'll avoid the pitfalls that you're now aware of. (but some new risks might appear:))

And you said it yourself that it makes no sense to cram a language over 3-6 months. A language needs to grow in your head, and there's no reason not to learn a few if each of them requires years. It'll require years, whether it's the only one or not. When you learn several, it's much easier to learn to think in them, to switch between them, to *feel* them. Learning more than 4 languages is a lifestyle choice, and what you give up on is "quality" time with your mother tongue.
2 persons have voted this message useful



justonelanguage
Diglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 4260 days ago
98 posts - 128 votes 
Speaks: English, Spanish

 
 Message 11 of 91
06 September 2012 at 10:12pm | IP Logged 
Already "fluent" by most definitions in Spanish. 11 years of study/use, major in college, abroad time, etc, etc. But I notice that the people that are best at things are dismissive of their own abilities. When I was in college, I thought that I knew EVERYTHING about Spanish. Now I realize that there is so much that I don't know.

Example of increasing complexity: I have a foot.
I have a foot composed of bones, muscles, ligaments, tendons.
I have a foot composed of metatarsals, phalanges, cuneiforms, navicular, cuboid, calcaneus.
I have a foot composed of all the above bones plus the many joints, ligaments, blood vessels, etc.
Patient presents with focal pain on the distal tibula provoked with increased amounts of miles run as a member of their school's track team. What is the differential diagnosis, laboratory or imaging tests, and management for patient.
--It gets much more complex. :)
Serpent wrote:
justonelanguage wrote:
I just don't get it when some polyglots say that they have attained a higher level in a certain language when their time and focus is divided amongst several languages whereas people that specialize in ONE language focus on just one tongue.
Not necessarily. In many universities, if you major in a modern Romance language for example, you have to study Latin. And in non-English speaking countries pretty much everyone is required to learn English, even if they "specialize" in, say, German. And previously, it wasn't even considered anything special to learn Latin, Ancient Greek and French.

You'll see it yourself, it's very different when you're already fluent in one language. It's like a whole new world, you have so many more options, especially if the language is related to the first one. You also already know what works for you, though you should always be open-minded and ready to try new things. You'll see the similarities easier, you'll know how languages work, you'll avoid the pitfalls that you're now aware of. (but some new risks might appear:))

And you said it yourself that it makes no sense to cram a language over 3-6 months. A language needs to grow in your head, and there's no reason not to learn a few if each of them requires years. It'll require years, whether it's the only one or not. When you learn several, it's much easier to learn to think in them, to switch between them, to *feel* them. Learning more than 4 languages is a lifestyle choice, and what you give up on is "quality" time with your mother tongue.

1 person has voted this message useful



outcast
Bilingual Heptaglot
Senior Member
China
Joined 4747 days ago
869 posts - 1364 votes 
Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin
Studies: Korean

 
 Message 12 of 91
07 September 2012 at 5:59am | IP Logged 
justonelanguage wrote:
Patient presents with focal pain on the distal tibula provoked with increased amounts of miles run as a member of their school's track team. What is the differential diagnosis, laboratory or imaging tests, and management for patient.
--It gets much more complex. :)


With all due respect, I have no need to learn any of that in my target languages to be considered non-native fluent. I'm studying languages, not medicine.

I have been studying "abstruse" English vocabulary for about 1 1/2 years now. I chose English and not Spanish on this task for the simple reason that English language vocabulary is the most fascinating part of that language, IMO (for Spanish, I chose to become expert in tense usage: I can use the anterior preterite, future subjunctive, and other tenses with ease). I'm talking about words such as "contumelious, subfuscous, coeval, inverecund, subtend, hebetude, sciamachy, ultracrepidarian, oppugn", etc. Yeah :)

But no one in their right mind learning English as a 2nd language needs to know any of them to be non-native fluent, dare I say, even native fluent.

I know almost nothing about gardening language. Only recently I learned what a "hoe" is. I laughed the first few times just saying it. If I just listen to a gardening show (not watch it), I honestly would be lost when they talk about gardening tools, plant species, and growing techniques. I still think I'm a native English speaker, nontheless.

All that said, I am with you in your spirit to learn all of it. Indeed my utopian goal is to learn all those terminologies in all may target languages. However, I won't feel like I failed if I never do, or frustrated. But as long as I have the ability, yes, by all means you never stop learning. Just don't expect to one day be able to say "I'm done learning language X". It won't happen.

Especially if you are like me, a perfectionist, which you obviously are.
7 persons have voted this message useful



justonelanguage
Diglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 4260 days ago
98 posts - 128 votes 
Speaks: English, Spanish

 
 Message 13 of 91
07 September 2012 at 6:10am | IP Logged 
I understand what you are saying, but those are not crazy-obscure words. Any native speaker will know what a "bozal", "colmillo", "castor", etc are. Those are not extremely academic words. Even words like "plunger" are very basic words...I mention that because I only learned how to say that within the last year.

However, for my particular case, it is relevant to know basic words like "entumecimiento", "diagnóstico", "tensiómetro" etc in case I want to work abroad in a Spanish speaking country as a physician. That is a very real possibility for me professionally. Another idea is to have a Spanish/English medical terminology book. However, there is already one on the market. :(

I seriously doubt that the average American knows every single crevice of the skull, yes, you are correct in saying that natives do not know many terms depending on the field. However, for me, it is very important to know these terms...at least in English.


outcast wrote:
justonelanguage wrote:
Patient presents with focal pain on the distal tibula provoked with increased amounts of miles run as a member of their school's track team. What is the differential diagnosis, laboratory or imaging tests, and management for patient.
--It gets much more complex. :)


With all due respect, I have no need to learn any of that in my target languages to be considered non-native fluent. I'm studying languages, not medicine.

I have been studying "abstruse" English vocabulary for about 1 1/2 years now. I chose English and not Spanish on this task for the simple reason that English language vocabulary is the most fascinating part of that language, IMO (for Spanish, I chose to become expert in tense usage: I can use the anterior preterite, future subjunctive, and other tenses with ease). I'm talking about words such as "contumelious, subfuscous, coeval, inverecund, subtend, hebetude, sciamachy, ultracrepidarian, oppugn", etc. Yeah :)

But no one in their right mind learning English as a 2nd language needs to know any of them to be non-native fluent, dare I say, even native fluent.

I know almost nothing about gardening language. Only recently I learned what a "hoe" is. I laughed the first few times just saying it. If I just listen to a gardening show (not watch it), I honestly would be lost when they talk about gardening tools, plant species, and growing techniques. I still think I'm a native English speaker, nontheless.

All that said, I am with you in your spirit to learn all of it. Indeed my utopian goal is to learn all those terminologies in all may target languages. However, I won't feel like I failed if I never do, or frustrated. But as long as I have the ability, yes, by all means you never stop learning. Just don't expect to one day be able to say "I'm done learning language X". It won't happen.

Especially if you are like me, a perfectionist, which you obviously are.

1 person has voted this message useful



patuco
Diglot
Moderator
Gibraltar
Joined 6813 days ago
3795 posts - 4268 votes 
Speaks: Spanish, English*
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 14 of 91
07 September 2012 at 5:37pm | IP Logged 
justonelanguage wrote:
Any native speaker will know what a "bozal", "colmillo", "castor", etc are.

Not necessarily. I had to think a bit about the first one and the third one stumped me for a fleeting moment until I realised that you weren't talking about some medical term.

justonelanguage wrote:
However, for my particular case, it is relevant to know basic words like "entumecimiento", "diagnóstico", "tensiómetro"

Conversely, I actually knew all these words almost without thinking, probably because I'm fairly used to scientific terminology.
3 persons have voted this message useful



justonelanguage
Diglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 4260 days ago
98 posts - 128 votes 
Speaks: English, Spanish

 
 Message 15 of 91
07 September 2012 at 5:49pm | IP Logged 
You're from Gibraltar and I know that most of you guys are bilingual, and also speak a mixed Spanish/English hybrid. You are a native Spanish speaker? In English, "muzzle" and "beaver" are not obscure words...they obviously are NOT the first words that a Spanish student learns but they aren't like "garrulous" or "loquacious". (Although "locuaz" is the Spanish version, very similar to the English word)

Thankfully, the scientific terms are very similar in Spanish and not too bad to remember. Enzima=enzyme, célula=cell, a lot of cognates!


patuco wrote:
justonelanguage wrote:
Any native speaker will know what a "bozal", "colmillo", "castor", etc are.

Not necessarily. I had to think a bit about the first one and the third one stumped me for a fleeting moment until I realised that you weren't talking about some medical term.

justonelanguage wrote:
However, for my particular case, it is relevant to know basic words like "entumecimiento", "diagnóstico", "tensiómetro"

Conversely, I actually knew all these words almost without thinking, probably because I'm fairly used to scientific terminology.

1 person has voted this message useful



hrhenry
Octoglot
Senior Member
United States
languagehopper.blogs
Joined 4928 days ago
1871 posts - 3642 votes 
Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese
Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe

 
 Message 16 of 91
07 September 2012 at 7:49pm | IP Logged 
justonelanguage wrote:

1. I'm going to be abroad for about six months in a break in my studies
teaching English. (That pushes my total abroad experience to 15 months) What
differences do people see in their language level when living abroad (doing EVERYTHING
in that language) for 1 year, 5 years, and 10 years? It's a small difference, but
important, to me.

I was in my early twenties when I moved to Mexico. I consider myself lucky in that I
had good teachers prior to the move, and I thought my Spanish was at an advanced level.
And it was - at a book level. I could say what I wanted to say most of the time, but
had trouble understanding typical conversations. I wasn't prepared for the amount of
everyday slang. It took me about 3-4 months to BEGIN to get comfortable with the amount
of slang used and when to use it. I should add that this was before NAFTA, before all
the US-based multinational businesses all over the place, before you saw a lot of
Americans outside of the usual tourist areas.

Nowadays, I think you're going to have to make a concerted effort to avoid English.
There's so much more English influence everywhere.

It may sound awful, but as soon as you get there, avoid English-speaking friends (hard
to do when you teach English, I know). I don't know where you will be, but in every
Spanish-speaking country I've been to, the people have been extremely friendly and are
easy to make friends with. When you leave your English classes, don't go straight home.
Go to a cafe, go to a park, anywhere where the locals gather. People will be quite
willing to strike up a conversation, and will often initiate it. So at some point
you're going to have to get over your shyness. The sooner the better. I'd also work on
my pronunciation. Make it difficult for people to guess where you're from, and they'll
stay in the language.

If the whole enchilada is what you're after, don't worry about any specialized
terminology. You can get that from any dictionary. Worry about daily interaction with
people about everyday things. You'll learn far more about how the language is used when
you focus on daily life.

R.
==


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