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Advice on Spanish and French/German/Por.. | ||
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| justonelanguage Diglot Groupie United States Joined 4244 days ago 98 posts - 128 votes  Speaks: English, Spanish | Message 1 of 91 06 September 2012 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I'm sorry if this type of thread has already been made, but I was looking for personalized advice.
Quick introduction: Mid 20's, medical student, Spanish major in college (spoke/studied Spanish ALL the time in college), studied or traveled abroad for 9 months, have spent 11 years with the language. I'm a fairly advanced Spanish speaker; my strengths are my grammar and vocabulary but negatives are non-native accent and shyness in meeting Latinos. My goal is to improve my Spanish to VERY high non-native levels. I'm not going for the "fluent" Spanish, I'm going for the big enchilada. In the future, I plan on treating Spanish-speaking patients in the US and thus have to know a lot of terms (sarpullido, imagen por resonancia magnética, manguito rotador, I've got all the bones memorized in Spanish. Yes, also the eight carpal and all the tiny bones in the foot) 1. I'm going to be abroad for about six months in a break in my studies teaching English. (That pushes my total abroad experience to 15 months) What differences do people see in their language level when living abroad (doing EVERYTHING in that language) for 1 year, 5 years, and 10 years? It's a small difference, but important, to me. 2. I would really like to learn a third language like Portuguese since it is very similar to Spanish but know that French may be more practical world-wide. German sounds amazing to me but I don't believe it's as practical for us Americans and it is harder to learn than the two aformentioned languages,according to the FLI. Also, I'm a big perfectionist and I have to learn a language very well and not just have a "tourist" fluency. Is it possible to learn two languages at a near-native level while not needing the third language for your job in the US? Is it possible to learn two languages at a near-native level while not needing the third language for your job in the US? 3. A very discussed topic, but hear me out. I don't understand the utility of knowing a lot of languages at a basic level. Isn't it important to know a language so well that you can make a living in it or that it helps your career prospects?I'm a fairly advanced Spanish speaker and until recently I didn't know words such as "bozal", "Monaguillo", "castor","diapasón" etc, etc. Even listening to audiobooks by native speakers is not perfect; I have to rewind some sections because they talk fast at times. Even at my level, I think I'm far from "fluent" and able to "do everything that I can that I can in English." To be specific, I think true "fluency" is obtained after 5-10 years (assuming the foreign language is similar to your native language) in a foreign country doing everything in that language. I also think it's extremely arrogant when people say that they are FULLY fluent in X language after studying a language for 3-6 months. Thanks and sorry for the long post! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Majka Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic kofoholici.wordpress Joined 4439 days ago 307 posts - 755 votes Speaks: Czech*, German, English Studies: French Studies: Russian | Message 2 of 91 06 September 2012 at 4:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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There are several points in your post, where the answer depends very much on what one needs / intends / will do with the target language.
First, native level of knowledge is very individual. You are going for the highest one, where the maintenance cost is accordingly high, perhaps even too high. Most people are content to get at native level in casual conversation, in their profession and in their hobbies, covering the rest on very high but non-native level. And it still allows for areas, where the vocabulary is only basic and can be expanded (think high school knowledge instead of university). To your questions: 1. One year stay when you already reached advanced level can be enough. But you have to work very hard, live and breath the language. Watch TV news, read newspapers (including yellow press), go out and practice, read college and university textbooks in Spanish... In current situation, almost everything you can do abroad can be done without actually living abroad. It is certainly harder, it takes much more time and effort, but it is doable. One can find newspapers and TV broadcast online, even some university courses can be found for free. On the contrary, one can spend years abroad and waste this time... 2. The cost of learning and maintaining third language at such level, without needing it for your job is usually too high. An exception would be needing it in private life but the vocabulary would be probably different then what you need for job. Me personally, I would redefine the level I expect to reach. Getting fluent in everyday conversations and in professional life is doable, and you can decide every time to go the extra bit to get this language up, should your situation change. 3. Again, the "fluency" is a concept different for different people. Many people are happy with their "tourist level" - me included, for some languages. And your idea of "doing what I can in English" is different from another native. In my opinion, you are setting the "native" standard higher than many others. A neurosurgeon has different vocabulary than an astrophysicist, a cook has different vocabulary than a mason. All of them are natives :) Edit: typos Edited by Majka on 06 September 2012 at 4:34pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| justonelanguage Diglot Groupie United States Joined 4244 days ago 98 posts - 128 votes Speaks: English, Spanish | Message 3 of 91 06 September 2012 at 4:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thanks for your input! I realized that it is actually not necessary to be that good at Spanish to treat Spanish-speaking patients. Really, the only thing that is necessary is to be able to interpret the symptoms and then explain them to the patient.
However, I find it much more rewarding to be able to choose the exact word for every situation, be it formal or informal. The connotations and "matices" of every word are at a higher level than just knowing what a word literally means. You are correct in saying that it is very individual. Living in Texas, California, or Florida would definitely help; my state has about 3-4% Latinos. Thus, more of an "effort" has to be made to find Spanish speakers to practice or improve. Native Spanish speakers DO know what "sarpullido" and "hormigueo" are, however. They do NOT tend to know "manguito rotador" because soccer players don't tend to injure their shoulders. :) They DO know how to say ACL (ligamento cruzado anterior) and other knee structures due to the strain that soccer places on the joint.
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| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6379 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 4 of 91 06 September 2012 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
IDK, I love football and medicine and sports medicine, and I read about them a lot in my target languages... I know that for me my (limited) knowledge of medicine would be a much bigger obstacle than my language skills hehe. And I bet there are many Spanish-speaking tennis fans who know the words that football fans don't know:) They, in turn, might not necessarily know some 'football words' like fibula or hamstring. And I'm sure the level of familiarity with these terms varies - the more relevant information is the recovery time required, not the exact location of the injury. Actually, the way I imagine it, the 'technical' part is not the most difficult one. The personal interaction with the patient and/or their family members is probably something more challenging. Even in your native language, this sort of interaction is a skill/gift, and finding the right words is more difficult when they don't have precise definitions. (I don't mean only the, well, sad moments but also dealing with anxious patients etc) Also, comprehension can be a challenge, as you deal with people of various ages&backgrounds, and people also articulate less clearly when they don't feel well. Slang or euphemisms can be an additional challenge too - you want to know very precisely what the person means, even if you have to expose a gap in your language knowledge by asking for clarification. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5314 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 5 of 91 06 September 2012 at 6:49pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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In this post, I'm going to refer to the various "CEFRL levels" used in European
language exams. If you're not familiar with these, you can find detailed information about each level here, including some self-assessment tools: CEFRL A short summary: A1 & A2: Beginner. B1: Can usually get by as a tourist without using native language. B2: Could probably take high-school classes, but it might be a challenge. C1: Can take university classes or work in an office job. C2: Near-native educated speaker, more or less.
In 1 year of round-the-clock immersion, I've seen people go from B2+ to C1+ without ever studying, though their reading and writing lagged behind their listening and speaking. After 5 or 10 years, I've seen people who were actually more comfortable in their second language than their native language. (However, they could reactivate their native language with a few days of immersion, and fix most of the holes within a few weeks of steady use. If you a speak a language from infancy through your PhD, it's hard to forget.)
If by "tourist fluency" you mean something like CEFRL B1, I agree with you. It's a somewhat awkward level: You can't really veg out in front of the TV, reading books is hard work, and your ability to interact is limited. If you've just reached B1, it's a fantastic level. But it's a lousy stopping point if you love the language or need to use it regularly. But there's a enormous range of skill between B1 and "near-native". Once you can watch TV, read books, and socialize easily, then you're in good shape. If you could work professionally in your second language, that would be even better. But I can imagine a lot of situations where I'd be perfectly happy to socialize in a language, but I wouldn't need more advanced skills. For example, if I lived in the southwestern US, I'd want to be able to talk about basic, concrete stuff in Spanish. And I would love to read Borges. But would it be worth a couple thousand hours of my life to get really good? Not at all. French is the only foreign language I care about to that extent. (Oh, and it does appear to be possible to reach C1 in French or Spanish in about 6 months, if you're willing to work incredibly hard. The US Foreign Service Institute expects their students to do exactly that—but they're happy to assign over 100 vocabulary words per day and to berate students until they break down in tears. Since I have no intention of trying their methods, I won't argue that their results are impossible!) Anyway, good luck with your Spanish, and may you find an appealing and useful third language! 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| justonelanguage Diglot Groupie United States Joined 4244 days ago 98 posts - 128 votes Speaks: English, Spanish | Message 6 of 91 06 September 2012 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thanks for your input. I think it depends on one's definitions of C1 and C2. Yes, I know that the CEFR has their standards but I think that people that pass the test can be sorely lacking in one of the many categories of language. I classify myself as C1 (because I think that C2 requires living abroad for 3+ years) and I would bet the house, the farm, the car, everything, that my skillz are far superior to those people that do "intensive" language study for 6 months.
We have a special language immersion program in my university that I was a part of; it was used in the 1940's to train Americans to be Japanese-English interpreters in WW2. In the dorm we had daily lunch tables in Spanish, French, Japanese, German, Japanese, and even Latin. Then we had coffee hours and small classes. 8-10 students/teacher. I just don't get it when some polyglots say that they have attained a higher level in a certain language when their time and focus is divided amongst several languages whereas people that specialize in ONE language focus on just one tongue. It seems pretty far-fetched to me. It's another topic but a fairly interesting one, too.
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| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5044 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 7 of 91 06 September 2012 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Obviously, I am somewhat biased towards Portuguese, but I'll try not to let it influence my advice. I assume by "FLI" you meant to write "FSI". Of course it would be easier to learn Portuguese after Spanish. As far as utility in the world goes, Portuguese is indeed a world language and it ranks above French in number of speakers. Though that may be so, if you want to learn French, learn French, which is also a world language. With your knowledge of Spanish and English, learning French will also be relatively easy for you. Whether or not German is "harder" than French or Portuguese and regardless of the lack of speakers in the US, German would be useful to you in your career because of the many medical and scientific journals written in the language. German is highly useful in western and central Europe. If you like German- learn it!
I didn't learn Portuguese or Spanish in order to make a living or help my career prospects, though my knowledge of these languages is useful to me in so many ways in my life. I read poetry and novels in both languages. I have friends who monolingually speak both languages and without knowing Spanish and Portuguese, how would I talk to them? I have friends now that I wouldn't have if it weren't for Spanish and Portuguese. My world has expanded exponentially as a result of knowing both languages. That's a worthy enough reason for me. Edited by iguanamon on 06 September 2012 at 7:49pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Majka Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic kofoholici.wordpress Joined 4439 days ago 307 posts - 755 votes Speaks: Czech*, German, English Studies: French Studies: Russian | Message 8 of 91 06 September 2012 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Reaching a high C2 level in a foreign language and maintaining it is an uphill battle you cannot leave and return later without a penalty.
And I still stand by my answer, that reaching such level is possible during one year abroad. But you really need to start with at least a strong B2 or weak C1 level and work hard. True high C2 level needs also ton of facts not directly connected with language - native speakers talk about politics, sports and scandals and one needs this knowledge to blend in. Then, there is current language of media and teens - the fad of the day, if you want. And then there are films, books and series everybody talks about. At least a passing knowledge is necessary to stay at such high level. In my opinion, there is something like C2+ level - not only "educated native", but somebody who is using his native language on very professional level - writers, good lecturers etc. But maintaining this level of competency is hard even in native language and very, very hard in second and third language. People who can get several languages at this level are usually really making living from this languages - conference interpreters, some lecturers or perhaps exceptional journalists, some writers. For you, one option for you would be a special language exchange - find a Spanish (Mexican) medical student and work together on your language skills. Such tandem work needs to be balanced - neither you nor your partner should feel that their part gets neglected. I suspect that finding a Spanish speaking medical student who wants to learn English at such high level wouldn't be an unsurmountable problem. Tandem work is a trick conference interpreters use. Both parties are very serious about learning and know what they want and expect, there is nothing casual about it. For your second foreign language, there are many possibilities. The coldest way how to decide is to look for maximum profit. Which language will be the most useful in your job? Are you looking for research materials, further education, contact with patients, contact with other doctors? Another possibility is to try out several languages briefly, to see which one speaks to you. Me personally, I would lower the expectations - I would aim for a B2 level (in passive skills - reading and understanding - this can be done much easier than a C1 or even C2 level in active skills). Look where this brings you and then decide, if it is worth the effort to go further. As for Spanish - I would try to get up the casual conversation skills. Get good in small talk. Watch sport in Spanish, find a sports bar with Spanish speaking patrons. And perhaps watching soaps would be a good investment, too. For speaking to patients, the medical vocabulary is not really big, most people are happy to get a slightly dumbed down version even in their native language. There will be few subject you will want to expand, but all in all, casual language will bring the highest "return and profit". Once more - don't neglect tabloids. Not many people admit freely reading them but they contain the subjects everybody talks about :) Something very different would be conversation with other doctors or nurses. I would really pick which parts of language to get at highest level first and relax about the rest. You will find the gaps very quickly and can then work at it. Set priorities and work hard on them. 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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