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Advice on Spanish and French/German/Por..

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tarvos
Super Polyglot
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Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 49 of 91
11 September 2012 at 4:28pm | IP Logged 
My parents did not raise me bilingually in the sense that they spoke English to me as a
child (they spoke Dutch to me), but I learned how to read while we were living abroad
in Canada, and my parents decided to simply provide me with tons and tons and tons of
English-language material (for example, I learned the terminology for things like
mathematics in English even before or at the same time as the Dutch words and I have
always hated the Dutch sign for dividing - I used the English sign and later just
fractions).

In a practical sense, that meant that by the age of 12-13, I was fully functional (when
I went to high school at 10/11 I already had a very good command of the language, but
whether it was fluent I don't know. I was certainly able to communicate well in it). A
few years later I attained a "native" level pretty much, although I always had a good
accent. I cannot recall ever not being able to speak English, and that is despite my
parents not speaking English to me unless there were people around that don't speak
Dutch.

If you want to bring up a child bilingually or multilingually, it suffices to simply
give them all the exposure they can get. I read about dinosaurs in English (and thus
knew many scientific and geographical terms in English before learning them in Dutch).
My dad was quick to owning computers, and practically every game I have ever played
from age 4 onwards has been in English. My dad installed the PC software in English
without fail (he to this day dislikes using them in Dutch). I was simply *around* it.
In that sense you feel like it's the most normal thing in the world to learn it,
because you're not learning it - I was simply using it. I had learned the basics in
Canada (I still do not care about grammar in English and I never really have - for me
English should sound right).

Create the environment around them for them to require to discover and explore in that
language, and it will suffice for them to learn. My parents never raised me to speak
English to me (although they certainly could have) and I've been just fine.


3 persons have voted this message useful



justonelanguage
Diglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 4244 days ago
98 posts - 128 votes 
Speaks: English, Spanish

 
 Message 50 of 91
11 September 2012 at 4:29pm | IP Logged 
TL=target language?

My mother tongue is an obscure chinese dialect that is *somewhat* related to Cantonese. Unfortunately, due to circumstances out of my control, I stopped speaking it when I was 5 and started to speak English in school. :(

That's the thing, I'm 100% Chinese but the only type of Chinese that I would want my children to know is Mandarin since it is (by far) the most influential type of Chinese.

And no, I'm not going to learn Mandarin. Learning Spanish to a level that I'm satisfied with was hard enough and Mandarin would be several times more difficult.

Julie wrote:
justonelanguage wrote:
So C1? (my level) I'm very comfortable with teaching my
children Spanish even if my future wife doesn't know it; it was my major and I taught
it in college some.


The thing is there are two ways how you can teach a foreign language to your children.
You can either 'teach' it in a very meaning of the word (design some activities in a
given foreign language, teach a couple of phrases, support their interest for the
language, show books/cartoons/games in TL, organize 'lessons' etc.) or you can speak TL
to the children (so they're raised bilingually, and with some support of TL media or,
preferably, immersion kindergarten/school/playgroups) they become 'native speakers' of
TL (even if they may not reach native fluency).

To do the first kind of teaching it is obviously good to know the language well but
it's not necessary. My parents who were learning English themselves when I was a little
girl made me interested in the language, taught me some phrases, provided me with some
interesting materials and tried to help in the very beginning. They don't even really
speak English.

To do the second thing, you have to be a very comfortable speaker of TL. Preferably,
you make a decision to speak a foreign language only with your children, with all the
consequences. This may be hard emotionally (singing lullabies in TL, not being able to
teach the songs you know from your own childhood etc.). You may also notice you don't
know the TL names of various everyday items, such as all the kitchen devices, pots etc.
It may be a real challenge both for you and your child. It may be very successful,
though - I know some examples of bilingual children that have learned one of their
languages almost exclusively from a non-native parent.

Hypothetically, if I had children and lived abroad, I am sure I would raise them
bilingually and speak Polish with them. If I stayed in Poland though, I'm not really
sure if I would decide to speak German only with them (despite my C2 level and my
foreign language teaching experience).

I think you shouldn't plan that much: think about your languages first, and wait for
actual wife and children with other decisions :). BTW, do you speak any dialect of
Chinese yourself? It may be difficult to convince your children that Chinese is part of
their heritage if you don't speak it.

1 person has voted this message useful



justonelanguage
Diglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 4244 days ago
98 posts - 128 votes 
Speaks: English, Spanish

 
 Message 51 of 91
11 September 2012 at 4:36pm | IP Logged 
I know that many people ask these questions, but I would really appreciate any help.

Learning a third language in addition to English (native) and Spanish (non-native) is something that I'd like to do and I've narrowed it down to three choices.

1. Portuguese: This would be, by far, the easiest of the three to learn due to my familiarity with Spanish. However, I'm curious about the differences between Brazilian and European Portuguese. Some Brazilians have said that there aren't many differences but others have said that they consider them to be very divergent. It's hard to get a consensus on this topic. It's fairly utilitarian and is fairly useful if I stay (most likely) in the Western Hemisphere.

2. French: It would be much harder than Portuguese, and I don't like that it is not very phonetic. It would be relatively useful due to Canada and obviously other parts of the world if I were to go to Europe or Africa.

3. German: According to the FSL, it's slightly harder than romance languages for anglo speakers and it seems that Germans know so much English that it wouldn't be as great to know. Also, unless I were in Europe, it's not very likely that I'd get a chance to use it. However, I like how it sounds and the fact that it is, in my uneducated mind, more phonetic than the other two.

Which one to pick?


justonelanguage wrote:
TL=target language?

My mother tongue is an obscure chinese dialect that is *somewhat* related to Cantonese. Unfortunately, due to circumstances out of my control, I stopped speaking it when I was 5 and started to speak English in school. :(

That's the thing, I'm 100% Chinese but the only type of Chinese that I would want my children to know is Mandarin since it is (by far) the most influential type of Chinese.

And no, I'm not going to learn Mandarin. Learning Spanish to a level that I'm satisfied with was hard enough and Mandarin would be several times more difficult.

Julie wrote:
justonelanguage wrote:
So C1? (my level) I'm very comfortable with teaching my
children Spanish even if my future wife doesn't know it; it was my major and I taught
it in college some.


The thing is there are two ways how you can teach a foreign language to your children.
You can either 'teach' it in a very meaning of the word (design some activities in a
given foreign language, teach a couple of phrases, support their interest for the
language, show books/cartoons/games in TL, organize 'lessons' etc.) or you can speak TL
to the children (so they're raised bilingually, and with some support of TL media or,
preferably, immersion kindergarten/school/playgroups) they become 'native speakers' of
TL (even if they may not reach native fluency).

To do the first kind of teaching it is obviously good to know the language well but
it's not necessary. My parents who were learning English themselves when I was a little
girl made me interested in the language, taught me some phrases, provided me with some
interesting materials and tried to help in the very beginning. They don't even really
speak English.

To do the second thing, you have to be a very comfortable speaker of TL. Preferably,
you make a decision to speak a foreign language only with your children, with all the
consequences. This may be hard emotionally (singing lullabies in TL, not being able to
teach the songs you know from your own childhood etc.). You may also notice you don't
know the TL names of various everyday items, such as all the kitchen devices, pots etc.
It may be a real challenge both for you and your child. It may be very successful,
though - I know some examples of bilingual children that have learned one of their
languages almost exclusively from a non-native parent.

Hypothetically, if I had children and lived abroad, I am sure I would raise them
bilingually and speak Polish with them. If I stayed in Poland though, I'm not really
sure if I would decide to speak German only with them (despite my C2 level and my
foreign language teaching experience).

I think you shouldn't plan that much: think about your languages first, and wait for
actual wife and children with other decisions :). BTW, do you speak any dialect of
Chinese yourself? It may be difficult to convince your children that Chinese is part of
their heritage if you don't speak it.


Edited by justonelanguage on 11 September 2012 at 4:37pm
1 person has voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 4489 days ago
5310 posts - 9399 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 52 of 91
11 September 2012 at 4:42pm | IP Logged 
I do not think French would be much harder than Portuguese and the relative ease is not
that important that it will take you that much more time - the amount of time you spend
on it is the most important thing, and also spending more time on your TL equals a bigger
chance of success.

For me the hardest language to learn to speak was probably French, and that is because it
was the first I had to learn consciously, and adapt to speaking in real life. I have
studied Russian (which is noted for its grammatical complexity) but I never found it hard
to learn.

Edited by tarvos on 11 September 2012 at 4:43pm
1 person has voted this message useful



Julie
Heptaglot
Senior Member
PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name
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Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, GermanC2, SpanishB2, Dutch, Swedish, French

 
 Message 53 of 91
11 September 2012 at 7:00pm | IP Logged 
@tarvos: I might be mistaken but I think that you wouldn't have learned English so well
as a child had you not lived abroad in Canada for a while (how long did you stay there
actually?). Obviously, parents don't have to speak a given language with their children
in order to raise them bilingually, provided that there are other native sources of the
language (the model situation would be that of a migrant family where the child learns
the language of the environment). This might be an immmersion school, a foreign language
speaking nanny, grandparents, friends etc. According to at least some research, a 'living
source' is necessary. Computers, books, movies - all of that is very useful but the child
has to speak the language, too.
2 persons have voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 4489 days ago
5310 posts - 9399 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 54 of 91
11 September 2012 at 10:45pm | IP Logged 
3,5 years. We moved back when I was 5,5. And no, this isn't that strange given that most
of my friend group had learned English to a slightly lower level than I had when we
started our bilingual education, and all of them have gone on to learn English to
practically native (or close) fluency. I did not have any living model until I started
bilingual education at about age 11. The only thing I might be better at than they are is
accent and perhaps some idiomatical usage. Nothing more.

Edited by tarvos on 11 September 2012 at 10:46pm
1 person has voted this message useful



Julie
Heptaglot
Senior Member
PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 6685 days ago
1251 posts - 1733 votes 
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Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, GermanC2, SpanishB2, Dutch, Swedish, French

 
 Message 55 of 91
11 September 2012 at 11:52pm | IP Logged 
I think you underestimate all the exposure you've gotten during your early childhood
abroad. I remember how good my native Polish was when I was 5,5. Had you not been a
native speaker of English as a child, you would not that easily use all the English-
language media later on. Obviously, it would be possible (I know people who learned a lot
just watching cartoons on TV with or without subtitles in their childhood) but moving on
to books about dinosaurs and learning mathematics in English would have been much harder
if you hadn't mastered the structure of the language before.

EDIT: Do I understand correctly that you went to a bilingual school with classes in
English at the age of 11?

Edited by Julie on 11 September 2012 at 11:56pm
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Serpent
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Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
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 Message 56 of 91
12 September 2012 at 12:41am | IP Logged 
Input is underestimated all the time:( If you don't have to search for it deliberately, you won't know that many people who speak your native language but have NOT had input in that other language (usually a related one).


1 person has voted this message useful



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