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The Grammar of Romance | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Kronos Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5059 days ago 186 posts - 452 votes  Speaks: German*, English | Message 9 of 16 16 September 2012 at 6:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Since I mentioned Mario Pei I want to add that he published an excellent book How to Learn Languages and What Languages to Learn, which I came to know about via a video on syzygycc's youtube channel. It came out in 1966 and again in 1973 with some additional chapters. It is now long out of print.
Chapters 17-21 basically deal with the same stuff as Bodmer's Romance chapters (only far more concisely), they are titled "What Languages Go Together? In What Ways?", "How Should One Handle the Romance Languages?", "What Are the Problems in Learning French?", How Do You Learn Italian?" and "Can You Learn Spanish and Portuguese at Once?" In some of those he repeatedly suggests studying Romance languages together. I thought it doesn't hurt to reproduce the relevant passages here. So at least we know Mario Pei's stance on the matter. On Romance languages: "There is definitely such a thing as taking your Romance languages together. For what concerns vocabulary, but not grammatical structure, Latin can be added to the Romance group. ... Spoken languages are best learned in isolation, as there is little or no reconciling their conflicting sound patterns, or using one as an aid to another save in limited areas of vocabulary and grammar, and as speech works too fast for rational mental comparisons. For what concerns grammatical structure, vocabulary, and the written language generally, language comparison can be of considerable service, and is a recommended practice." "On a spoken-language level, the Romance languages, like all languages, are perhaps best taken individually. But there are many other levels on which they can be studied to good advantage en bloc, or at least two or three at a time. Their written-language similarities are self-evident, as is their descent from a common ancestor, Latin. From any angle save that of straight colloquial speech, be it philological and historical, or literary and philosophical, or even structurally descriptive (at least for what concerns morphology, syntax, and vocabulary), they lend themselves superbly to comparative study. If you are alread acquainted with one of them, or with the Latin from which they all sprang, there is no earthly reason why you should not utilize your knowledge of one to broaden your knowledge of another." "Comparative grammars of French, Spanish, and Italian, like that of Oliver Heatwole, are of considerable help in speeding up the acquisition of the grammatical structure of one Romance language by a learner who is already acquainted with another." "All this [i.e. sometimes confusingly similar, sometimes completely different vocabulary and expressions] is not said to discourage you from comparative study of the Romance languages, which is basically a recommended procedure. It is merely putting you on your guard against expecting too much." On Spanish and Portuguese: "The best advice that can be given for the spoken languages is, as usual, to learn them separately and in isolation, from native speakers or recordings. ... This is not altogether necessary for the written languages." "The final verdict on Spanish and Portuguese at once is no for the spoken languages, yes (with qualifications) for the written. Possession of both will give you access to practically one person out of ten throughout the world, and both Spanish and Portuguese speakers are people well worth knowing." Note: The 'qualifications' refer in the first place to the necessity of paying sufficient attention to the many unexpected dissimilar words and the subtle differences in idioms between both languages. He shares some anecdotes from a visit to Portugal where he got frequently surprised or stumped at certain idioms that differed completely from what he expected, having himself a strong Spanish background. On going to Portugal: "It is not enough to know the language. One must also know the customs, the historical background, and, above all, the popular local slang forms. Otherwise, you remain a foreigner. But this is not too bad, so long as you can understand (more or less) and be understood." 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| seldnar Senior Member United States Joined 6930 days ago 189 posts - 287 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, French, Greek | Message 10 of 16 16 September 2012 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | |||||
I second this. It is a really useful book that comes from the Euro Comprehension Research Group Romance Languages site (EuroComRom). The site isn't nearly as thorough as the book is, however. The PDF version of the book is available from the publisher Shaker Verlag at a reasonable price (although printing is disabled). The Research Group also has a site for learning German languages together and Slavic languages together. Although they have links to English language versions of these sites, the sites are way behind schedule. If you click on the link you'll see a notice that the site will be finished in 2008!. The German language versions seem to be up and running (my German is very limited, however, so I may be wrong). I also recommend (sorry for the lack of accents, I can't make the forum software recognize them) "Comprendre les langues romanes du francais a l'espagnol, au portugais, a l'italien & au roumain" by Paul Teyssier published by Chandeigne (which is also a really nice Lusophile bookstore near the Pantheon in Paris). Because I can't seem to put link within paragraphs, all the links are below: EuroComRom Basic Course An example of the French to Romance Languages sound changes EuroCom Germanic Languages EuroCom Slavic Languages 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Kronos Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5059 days ago 186 posts - 452 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 11 of 16 16 September 2012 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
Thank you for sharing these resources. For those who can read German the good news is that download of the German version (Die sieben Siebe) is free (printing also disabled). Download Die sieben Siebe 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| daristani Senior Member United States Joined 6942 days ago 752 posts - 1661 votes Studies: Uzbek | Message 12 of 16 16 September 2012 at 9:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
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My PDF of the English version of The Seven Sieves seems to be printable; I can't recall where I found it. I find it strange that anyone would sell a 230-page book that can only be read online.
I also picked up somewhere a French PDF version of the book, entitled Les Sept Tamis, which for whatever reason is substantially longer, at 346 pages. It, as well, seems to be printable. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Peregrinus Senior Member United States Joined 4290 days ago 149 posts - 273 votes Speaks: English* | Message 13 of 16 16 September 2012 at 10:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
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A link that might be useful for this discussion is for the Romance profile thread in the collaborative writing forum. It has a lot of links to discussions on this and other Romance related topics.
Romance Profile 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| seldnar Senior Member United States Joined 6930 days ago 189 posts - 287 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, French, Greek | Message 14 of 16 17 September 2012 at 3:46am | IP Logged | |||||
Good to know that things have changed. Thanks. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6395 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 15 of 16 17 September 2012 at 5:01am | IP Logged | |||||
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That's funny, I very rarely print stuff just to read it but I printed maybe about 50 pages of my copy... it's from uzbekistan.
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| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6380 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 16 of 16 17 September 2012 at 7:18am | IP Logged | |||||
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This thread has some awesome resources! As my Spanish is really getting along now, it makes me tempted to take on the others and check out some comparative grammars. Thanks everyone!
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