Register  Login  Active Topics  Maps  

"Parecem querer" / "Parece quererem"

  Tags: Portuguese
 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages Post Reply
14 messages over 2 pages: 1 2  Next >>
outcast
Bilingual Heptaglot
Senior Member
China
Joined 4724 days ago

869 posts - 1364 votes 
Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin
Studies: Korean

 
 Message 1 of 14
17 September 2012 at 3:56pm | IP Logged 
I've been leafing some online sources on the relationship between "parecer" + infintive OR personal infinitive.

"...ou forma locução com o verbo parecer - nessa situação, ou o verbo auxiliar flexiona:

'As crianças parecem querer algo'

...ou o principal, ficando o auxiliar na terceira pessoa do singular:

'As crianças parece quererem algo'.

O lembrete é que nunca se flexiona o infinitivo nas demais locuções verbais, como em "As crianças não quiseram fazer a lição"..."

Native input seems necessary here. Is there any nuance in saying the first or second senteces? And if not which is the most commont construction?

Extra question:

What is the rule regarding contractions like "nalgums, noutros, dali..."? Are these optional, colloquial, or discouraged? Thanks!
1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6372 days ago

9753 posts - 15779 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 2 of 14
17 September 2012 at 5:18pm | IP Logged 
i've never heard nalguns but I've heard the others. Seems like nalguns is discouraged but others aren't, especially dali (de ali is one of the most awkward non-contracted forms, imo!) I've found this too...
1 person has voted this message useful



Medulin
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Croatia
Joined 4443 days ago

1199 posts - 2192 votes 
Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali

 
 Message 3 of 14
17 September 2012 at 7:13pm | IP Logged 
In Portuguese, ALGO is not used much (unlike in Spanish), it sounds a bit like SHALL in English, it does not belong to the everyday Portuguese. ALGUMA COISA is always used instead. (ALGUMA COISA is not informal, but neutral; it is ALGO which is formal sounding).


Google search

''Parece que as crianças querem'' 30 hits
''As crianças parecem querer''    30 hits
''As crianças parece quererem'' 1 hit

''parece que as pessoas querem'' 338,000 results
''as pessoas parecem querer'' 42,500 results
"as pessoas parece quererem"   7 results

The last example (with PESSOAS) is pretty representative of modern Portuguese.
It has enough tokens for conclusions to be drawn.

in 90% of cases you use PARECE QUE + subject + verb (It seems that people want)
In very formal contexts you can say SUBJECT + conjugated parecer + non-personal infinitive (People seem to want)

the last example is almost never heard (As pessoas parece quererem),
it sounds like 19th century Portuguese.

But there's a slight difference between
Pareço estar louco = I look like I'm crazy. (parecer = to look like/appear)
=I'm not crazy, but I give everyone an impression of being crazy

Parece que estou louco = It seems (like) I'm crazy (parecer = to seem)
=It seems I'm 100% crazy

Edited by Medulin on 17 September 2012 at 7:27pm

4 persons have voted this message useful



Expugnator
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Brazil
Joined 4941 days ago

3335 posts - 4349 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento
Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian

 
 Message 4 of 14
17 September 2012 at 7:28pm | IP Logged 
I'm gonna say it from the point of view of a native speaker of Brazilian Portuguese:

"Parece quererem" is over-high, literary register. "Parecem querer" is high, news written, academic register.

What you would do in spoken language is use "parece" in impersonal forms, just like you do with its English counterpart - it seems that.

"Parece que as crianças querem alguma coisa" = It seems the children want something. This is not only spoken, but also perfectly ok for written language as well.

Bear in mind that "parece" in "parece quererem" is rather regarded as an impersonal form just like the one using the subjunctive. You could even have a topicalized construction in spoken language:

"As crianças, parece que elas querem alguma coisa".

This is one of the topics when subjunctive is preferred over personal infinitive, even though the personal infinitive is alive and kicking at spoken language.

As for the contractions, there seemed to be a regression from literary to contemporary spoken language, with some contractions appearing less and less often. "Nalguns" and "noutros" are examples of contractions that sound quite literary. You'd rather use the preposition "em" dettached, as "em alguns", "em outros". This is even more valid for the non-literary language of newspapers and the academy - it seems more analytical, hence more rational, to use those non-contracted forms.

Contractions with "de" are more alive, so, "dali"is preffered. You could even hear "dum", "duma" in free variation with "de um", "de uma" in the spoken language, though it's still valid that non-contracted forms look better at print.
4 persons have voted this message useful



iguanamon
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Virgin Islands
Speaks: Ladino
Joined 5037 days ago

2237 posts - 6731 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French)

 
 Message 5 of 14
17 September 2012 at 8:29pm | IP Logged 
Thanks for your native speaker input, @Expugnator.

Edited by iguanamon on 17 September 2012 at 9:50pm

1 person has voted this message useful



Flarioca
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Brazil
Joined 5657 days ago

635 posts - 816 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian
Studies: Catalan, Mandarin

 
 Message 6 of 14
19 September 2012 at 1:05am | IP Logged 
The use of inflected infinitive in Portuguese is not that easy and, as Expugnator said, you will seldom use it unless in more formal settings.

On the other hand, their meanings are very easy get.

I think that constructions with infinitives are beautiful and worth studying, however.

One (simple but not complete) rule that would justify the use of the inflected infinitive in "As crianças parece quererem algo" would be the fact that the declarative verb "parece" has no subject and "quererem" has "crianças" as subject.

This paper (in English by a Portuguese speaker) seems to be a deep analysis of the matter.

Edited by Flarioca on 19 September 2012 at 1:16am

3 persons have voted this message useful



fabriciocarraro
Hexaglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
Brazil
russoparabrasileirosRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 4490 days ago

989 posts - 1454 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, EnglishB2, Italian, Spanish, Russian, French
Studies: Dutch, German, Japanese

 
 Message 7 of 14
19 September 2012 at 3:08pm | IP Logged 
Well, I've never heard or read "Parece quererem" in my whole life. It actually sounds very wrong to me, even if people said here it's gramatically correct.
3 persons have voted this message useful



Flarioca
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Brazil
Joined 5657 days ago

635 posts - 816 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian
Studies: Catalan, Mandarin

 
 Message 8 of 14
19 September 2012 at 3:32pm | IP Logged 
It may seem unusual, as all inflected infinitive forms do, but it is correct, for instance:


OS ARROIOS

Os arroios são rios guris...
Vão pulando e cantando dentre as pedras.
Fazem borbulhas d'água no caminho: bonito!
Dão vau aos burricos,
às belas morenas,
curiosos das pernas das belas morenas.
E às vezes vão tão devagar
que conhecem o cheiro e a cor das flores
que se debruçam sobre eles nos matos que atravessam
e onde parece quererem sestear.
Às vezes uma asa branca roça-os, súbita emoção
como a nossa se recebêssemos o miraculoso encontrão
de um Anjo...
Mas nem nós nem os rios sabemos nada disso.
Os rios tresandam óleo e alcatrão
e refletem, em vez de estrelas,
os letreiros das firmas que transportam utilidades.
Que pena me dão os arroios,
os inocentes arroios...

(Mário Quintana)


See here.


3 persons have voted this message useful



This discussion contains 14 messages over 2 pages: 2  Next >>


Post ReplyPost New Topic Printable version Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page was generated in 0.4355 seconds.


DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved
No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization.