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The "Michel Thomas Method"-whatever it is

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
Poll Question: Are you interested in it?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
4 [17.39%]
4 [17.39%]
13 [56.52%]
2 [8.70%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

37 messages over 5 pages: 13 4 5  Next >>
Owen_Richardson
Newbie
Canada
Joined 4324 days ago

14 posts - 19 votes
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 9 of 37
22 September 2012 at 9:49pm | IP Logged 
Peregrinus wrote:
His whole breathless "I've gotta secret do you wanta me tell you" spiel smacks of a setup for either of (or a combination):

1) a sales pitch to a commercial course based on MT but NEW AND IMPROVED! (notice the praise *and* the criticisms - criticisms that would less likely be given if the unknown "secret" is actually that since MT is based on it even if he didn't explain it);


What? I think I should respond to that, but I actually found that last sentence a bit difficult to parse.

Quote:

2) a long-winded single/connected source pseudo-scientific exposition of a personal theory with anecdotal unverified testimonials.

When he could just have come here and given a succinct explanation of the "secret" with a short bulleted list of evidence he believes supports it.


I have a long reading list. The research base supporting what I believe is quite possibly the most extensive in the field of education.

But from experience, I know it's also extremely non-obvious to people how exciting it SHOULD be, and they tend to just not connect if I lead by throwing charts and graphs and meta-analyses at them.

I don't actually know what the best way IS to get people to understand why they should be interested.

But I'd be HAPPY to just give you a big list of links without having to bother with any context or explanation if you'd actually interested in reading the stuff just from that?

Quite honestly I'm bitter and angry and disappointed in people for not getting what a BIG DEAL it is, and yeah, I feel like a crackpot crank. Except that the empirical evidence and logical solidity of the Theory of Instruction still seem too strong for it to be wrong, and I really don't think that's what the internal experience of a crackpot is like.

Edited by Owen_Richardson on 22 September 2012 at 9:52pm

1 person has voted this message useful



Owen_Richardson
Newbie
Canada
Joined 4324 days ago

14 posts - 19 votes
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 10 of 37
22 September 2012 at 9:50pm | IP Logged 
hrhenry wrote:
Owen_Richardson wrote:

I wanted to know how many people are zealously fascinated by the subject, how many are
vaguely interested, how many really don't give a damn, and how many actually wish people
would just shut up about it altogether.

Is that so unreasonable?

Not unreasonable. But the leading language probably doesn't help your cause any.

R.
==


Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "leading"...
1 person has voted this message useful



hrhenry
Octoglot
Senior Member
United States
languagehopper.blogs
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1871 posts - 3642 votes 
Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese
Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe

 
 Message 11 of 37
22 September 2012 at 10:01pm | IP Logged 
Owen_Richardson wrote:

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "leading"...

Language used to induce, influence or suggest a particular answer.

It starts with your subject title, then continues with your choices. They could be more
objective.

Does that clear it up for you?

R.
==
2 persons have voted this message useful



Owen_Richardson
Newbie
Canada
Joined 4324 days ago

14 posts - 19 votes
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 12 of 37
22 September 2012 at 10:03pm | IP Logged 
Peregrinus wrote:
Out of curiosity and with frankly little better to do with my time, I googled OP's name and "Michel Thomas".

What I found was his (long-winded gee whiz) comment on now-banned Cainntear's blog here. Apparently he is fascinated with Direct Instruction and went so far as to say in that blog comment:

Quote:

I mean, I’d give well better than 50% odds that a real “learning revolution” is actually possible. Like, it could actually be all that: dramatic and extensive.





Yeah that's me... although the wiki page on "Direct Instruction" isn't the best place to go for an explanation of what it is. Last time I read it it was still a bit confused over the difference between 'little di' direct instruction (ie, instruction that is in someway more direct than normal) and 'big DI' Direct Instruction, which is just a name, and isn't really "Instruction that is somehow more Direct than normal" than linear algebra is algebra that has been put more in a line than it usually is.

But yeah I'm extremely excited about it. I think it's very worth getting excited about.

But I came to that conclusion myself through a long, convoluted process of obsessively following up in-depth on references related to MT, most of which were duds. I had to read a LOT before I started to clue in to its importance, and a lot more before I actually started to understand it.

Ie, I did NOT learn about DI through DI.

So I haven't yet figured out a quick and reliable way to clearly and easily communicate all that detailed information to others.

But I'm trying to figure it out, and I can't help but fumble a little here, okay? Please don't punish me for not being perfect in the first place. It's hard enough not to do that to myself...
2 persons have voted this message useful



Owen_Richardson
Newbie
Canada
Joined 4324 days ago

14 posts - 19 votes
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 13 of 37
22 September 2012 at 10:14pm | IP Logged 
hrhenry wrote:
Owen_Richardson wrote:

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "leading"...

Language used to induce, influence or suggest a particular answer.

It starts with your subject title, then continues with your choices. They could be more
objective.

Does that clear it up for you?

R.
==


...I guess so?

You mean
[robot voice]
"What is your level of interest in the "Michel Thomas Method". (Higher numbers being high interest)


3
2
1
0
something negative"
[/robot voice]

or something like that would have been better?

Maybe you're right. I'd have to think about it.

I already tend to second guess myself so much that I default to just not bothering to try to communicate with people at all, though.

Like I told "Perigrinus", I was curious to see discussion along the lines of:

Quote:
Do you just have a vague academic interest in it? Or an intense personal obsession with reverse engineering it? Do you have any strong pre-existing opinions on what is necessary and sufficient to explain how it works in theory? Simple behavioral conditioning? Magic language fairies? Do you think it's basically bullshit and wish nobody would ever speak or it again? Or are you zealously obsessed with it, seeing it as a herald of the One True Way? Or what?


Kinda get a qualitative feel for what's out there to quantify.

That's assuming people are into mutually assumed good will, though...

Edited by Owen_Richardson on 22 September 2012 at 10:15pm

1 person has voted this message useful



Peregrinus
Senior Member
United States
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149 posts - 273 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 14 of 37
22 September 2012 at 10:21pm | IP Logged 
Owen_Richardson wrote:

Ie, I did NOT learn about DI through DI.


Which necessarily means this is a theory that cannot provide a method for self-learners to use to teach themselves, but rather only be useful to course designers. That likely significantly cuts down on the number of forum readers who will be interested.

Quote:

So I haven't yet figured out a quick and reliable way to clearly and easily communicate all that detailed information to others.


How about instead of focusing on long-winded analysis and conclusions that may seem right and logical to you (and I'm not saying they are not actually), but may not to others based on differing premises or interpretations, coming up instead with a series of methods that can be used to design a course. Like the patented MT method of:

a) teacher prompt
b) dumb student response and teacher correction
c) bright student response and teacher praise
d) teacher reinforcement.


Quote:
But I'm trying to figure it out, and I can't help but fumble a little here, okay? Please don't punish me for not being perfect in the first place. It's hard enough not to do that to myself...



We're not trying to do that, but the tone of your OP as pointed out smacks of internet marketing hype and past threads of over-inflated claims with little verifiable proof in practice.

As I am sure you realize since you are going off of the principles expounded by others, there is nothing really new but a lot of room for incremental improvements in many teaching and learning methods. Again though the audience here is mostly interested in methods and courses that can be used today, and not speculation/theory about a bright new far-off future.

1 person has voted this message useful



hrhenry
Octoglot
Senior Member
United States
languagehopper.blogs
Joined 4890 days ago

1871 posts - 3642 votes 
Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese
Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe

 
 Message 15 of 37
22 September 2012 at 10:30pm | IP Logged 
Owen_Richardson wrote:

You mean
[robot voice]
"What is your level of interest in the "Michel Thomas Method". (Higher numbers being
high interest)


3
2
1
0
something negative"
[/robot voice]

Excepting the silly robot voice remark, yes, that probably would have gotten a better
response around these parts.

Believe it or not, most of the people that hang out here on HTLAL are quite familiar
with MT's method and its pros and cons.

R.
==

Edited by hrhenry on 22 September 2012 at 10:31pm

3 persons have voted this message useful





emk
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Moderator
United States
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2615 posts - 8806 votes 
Speaks: English*, FrenchB2
Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 16 of 37
22 September 2012 at 10:38pm | IP Logged 
Owen_Richardson wrote:
So I haven't yet figured out a quick and reliable way to clearly
and easily communicate all that detailed information to others.

But I'm trying to figure it out, and I can't help but fumble a little here, okay?
Please don't punish me for not being perfect in the first place. It's hard enough not
to do that to myself...


Can you explain, in a few paragraphs, what you think makes MT courses work?

Here's an example. I've had good results with Assimil. If I wanted to explain why
Assimil works, I might say something like the following:

Quote:
Comprehensible input. Assimil uses native language translations and lots
of repetition to make a foreign language recording (and the matching text)
comprehensible. This efficiently provides a student with many well-understood examples
of the new language to draw on. To learn more, see: Krashen, comprehensible input.

Daily, bite-sized chunks. An Assimil lesson can be comfortably completed within
a day. This makes it easy to build a daily study habit, and it gives the student a
nice, clear roadmap.

Repetition. Key vocabulary and grammar points are seen repeatedly in an Assimil
course, providing periodic reinforcement. To learn more, see: spaced repetition system,
forgetting curve.

Output practice. Etc.


If you could summarize your thoughts briefly and clearly, I'm sure that plenty of
people here would be interested. It would probably be best, however, not to post a huge
list of links with no explanations, or to use lots of unfamiliar jargon.

The trick to avoid "crank" status is carefully evaluate the evidence for your beliefs,
to try to understand counter-arguments sympathetically, and to not provide way more
information than your audience wants.


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