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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| sctroyenne Diglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5184 days ago 739 posts - 1312 votes  Speaks: English*, French Studies: Spanish, Irish | Message 1 of 10 19 October 2012 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | ||
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So I was working on a project to translate an episode of The Office into French as an
exercise. Working on the vocabulary I noticed that as a learner of French, my vocabulary is still quite basic (one word for a single item or idea, maybe some slang words) whereas in English it would be much richer. I noticed that we have basic terms that everyone knows and uses, standard slang/informal words that are also used by everyone (which learners may or may not know), some that may be more common with certain groups of people (regional, generational), some that are techinical or offensive, and a whole bank of words that may have fallen into disuse (as far back as Shakespearean to the 80s). Anyone who knows The Office (US) knows that Michael Scott is always trying to be funny and so he almost never says something in a straightforward manner which is what makes this translation exercise challenging. In one line Michael says: "Hey Pam. Do you need me to walk you to your vehicular transport?" Instead of saying "car" he uses a sort of overly-formal/technical expression for effect. In a later episode, Andy, trying to act like Michael to suck up to him says, "Sebring by Chrysler. Heck of a motor carriage." Now, I already know a couple slang terms in French for car in addition to the standard "voiture": bagnole and caisse. But when looking to translate what they said I was looking for something that would create a specfic effect. Also consider this passage from Veronica Mars where the characters start speaking in a style inspired by old noir detective series:
Is there a linguistic term to describe this sort of language use? Intentionally using a word from the wrong register for effect: too formal, technical, old-fashioned, informal, offensive, from the wrong generation or region? Or to describe someone's overall word choices, such as Ned Flanders from The Simpsons and his "corny" way of speaking or someone who tries to be "hip" and uses (and misuses) slang from youth culture or too many buzz words? I ask both from the standpoint of being able to explain to a non-native speaker what a word means, why it's not typically used and why someone may have chosen to use it, and as a learner who wants to be able to identify this sort of usage in French and maybe sprinkle a few into my own speech to develop my own style. Any tips for learning this kind of vocabulary in a foreign language (other than through exposure to media, of course), how to look up the precise "effect" of words, etc? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4621 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 2 of 10 20 October 2012 at 2:29am | IP Logged | ||
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That's a very interesting question, and helps to illustrate just how hard it would be to get to real native levels of proficiency.
I suppose not every American or Brit knows the Philip Marlowe/Raymond Chandler films inside out, but I suppose most of us are familiar with the genre and would recognise it, even if we didn't know all the specialised vocabulary (like "gat" for gun, or "on the lam" for on the run, Barbara Stanwyck's use of "Straight down the line" from "Double Indemnity", etc). There have been whole waves of French films that were a sort of hommage to the American "noir" genre....I can think of things like "Rififi", "Don't Shoot the Pianist", a whole lot of films with Jean Gabin, Jean Paul Belmondo, Jean Luis Trintignant, Alain Delon, ... I used to watch a lot of those kind of films and may have picked up a little of the vocabulary, but I'm a long way out of touch with it now, and haven't studied French actively for years. But I'd be looking at those kind of films for that kind of vocabulary, and for enjoyment of course. :) To have the right sorts of vocabulary to be able to do what you are talking about, it seems that one needs to be well and widely read, both literally, but also in films and TV, and ideally from "real life". Edited by montmorency on 20 October 2012 at 2:30am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| microsnout TAC 2010 Winner Senior Member Canada microsnout.wordpress Joined 5264 days ago 277 posts - 553 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 3 of 10 20 October 2012 at 3:37am | IP Logged | ||
This can be difficult as there is a double standard on the part of listeners. In your native language you can say almost anything, use any words you like and you will seen as 'creative' with words or witty but in a 2nd language you more often get corrected or laughed at, especially if it involves creative swearing. (there is also the very common québécois slang "mon char" for my car) Edited by microsnout on 20 October 2012 at 3:41am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| sctroyenne Diglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5184 days ago 739 posts - 1312 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Spanish, Irish | Message 4 of 10 20 October 2012 at 4:42am | IP Logged | ||
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Yes, that is the trouble being foreign. It works if you get to know someone really well
then you have a comfortable place to try out new vocab. And sometimes I think they're relieved when you can start to talk more "normal" to them instead of sticking to just the basics. But it's very easy to get it wrong and have it taken the wrong way. It also occured to me that by watching Kaamelott, I'm exposed to a lot of words and language use that is outdated and in some cases made up. And as a non-native speaker it's not always obvious. This can make it difficult to get the humor sometimes and leads to the risk of misuing something inadvertently. Other words I look up and it just says "informal" or "very informal" but I don't know if that means it would be offensive or crass to use them (like "pieu" for bed). The dictionary doesn't provide enough guidance to judge what exact context the word has and what sociodemographic group(s) would use it or not use it and in what cases. Which is why having a native speaker or two to consult can be so important. A while back I posted about watching Law and Order SVU and Ice T talking about a girl they suspected may have been prostituting herself said, "Wouldn't be the first time a girl flat-backed her way through college." And on Veronica Mars someone jumping off a building was described as "Greg Louganising" off a building. And so in these two cases a non-native is confronted with language that is completely made up by the writers. I'd feel so bad for someone putting those sentences into Anki. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 4923 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 5 of 10 20 October 2012 at 4:56am | IP Logged | ||
This is where Google can come in handy (if you have no access to native speakers to ask). Search for the word, perhaps with surrounding words, then take a look at the results - blog postings, in particular. You'll soon enough get an idea of current usage and how far out the slang really is or isn't. R. == 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| viedums Hexaglot Senior Member Thailand Joined 4459 days ago 327 posts - 528 votes Speaks: Latvian, English*, German, Mandarin, Thai, French Studies: Vietnamese | Message 6 of 10 20 October 2012 at 5:32am | IP Logged | ||
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“Getaway sticks” is slang of a certain vintage, as detailed in the link below. Some of these phrases, like “the cat’s miaow”, are still widely recognized. My feeling is that the use of slang depends a lot on context, and it’s often conspiratorial, by which I mean that you need an in-group, or knowing interlocutors who will pick up on what you are doing and reciprocate. This is what is being recreated in the TV program, but it’s surprisingly hard to find it in real life.
In French, I’ve always enjoyed using “un boulot” or “un sale boulot” to describe a job that’s nothing special. The problem with slang is that it changes – ever checked out Celine’s “Voyage au Bout de la Nuit”? Pretty incomprehensible stuff that would probably contaminate rather than enrich your French if you ever managed to read it. How to Sound Like the Bee's Knees 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6496 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 7 of 10 20 October 2012 at 11:03am | IP Logged | ||
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You have to know a language really well to be able to pull off those language games with succes - you need to know those different registers (including slang from different periods) and you need to know what the 'unmarked' way to say something would be so that you can avoid it. Few language learners can compete with the native speakers in this kind of sport, but even among native speakers the capabilities vary.
Personally I like to use the languages I know slightly beyond what I can be sure of - the good old advice about sticking to things you have heard a native speaker say doesn't appeal to me (and my memory isn't comprehensive enough to stock everything I ever have heard which in itself precludes the exclusive use of such a strategy). And I like to play with different registers in Danish so it would be hard not to do the same thing in other languages - which sometimes goes well, sometimes leads to disaster. But it is better to have fun with your languages than to be so anxious about correctness that you hardly dare say or write anything. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5559 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 8 of 10 20 October 2012 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | ||
Reminds me, at my job I recently had to tell hundreds of students and some lecturers that their university issued ID card (used for library, entrance to buildings and special events, paying in the canteen) had to be renewed because a new semester had begun. I told them "Sie müssten Ihre Karte verlängern lassen." (You should get your card renewed) That means I told that exact sentence to many dozens of international students. And one particular lecturer with a Slavic accent. The students understood me, or asked me to repeat it in English. But that one lecturer looked at me with a puzzled expression; I repeated the German sentence with some gestures. He asked 'what?' - I tried to explain that the cards had to be renewed at the start of every semester - and then he said, with careful enunciation: 'ah, die Gültigkeitsdauer verlängern' (extend the period of validity) I can't say for sure whether I've ever uttered the word 'Gültigkeitsdauer' before. No harm done, of course; using too-formal language as a foreigner in German comes across as earnest and disciplined. But that episode made me wonder if it's possible that a lack of context/register in acquisition may not only make your production unidiomatic, but also hinder your comprehension because it makes you anticipate things to be expressed in an unidiomatic way. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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