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"this letter sounds like" controversies | ||
Tags: Alphabets | Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| Mauritz Octoglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 4849 days ago 223 posts - 325 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, EnglishC2, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, Esperanto, French Studies: Old English, Yiddish, Arabic (Written), Mandarin, Korean, Portuguese, Welsh, Icelandic, Afrikaans | Message 9 of 25 22 October 2012 at 12:30am | IP Logged | |||||
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"a" as in "father" is probably the most infamous one on this forum...
3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6690 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 10 of 25 22 October 2012 at 12:53am | IP Logged | |||||
Have you seen any (bad) explanation for it or do you just find the sound difficult? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Hampie Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6440 days ago 625 posts - 1009 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Latin, German, Mandarin | Message 11 of 25 22 October 2012 at 1:16am | IP Logged | |||||
Is there even a good explanation? As far as Wikipedia says even phoneticians are not entirely in agreement regarding how it's produced :P 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6937 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 12 of 25 22 October 2012 at 1:51am | IP Logged | |||||
I can remember the discussion of Russian щ as "shch" which isn't all that accurate. In general, I've never been thrown off by any pronunciation guides in the courses that I've used since whenever I've seen them (or paid attention to them), the author is smart enough to make it clear what the reference language/variant is be it American English, British English or whatever. In addition, I get courses with audio as a rule so that I can hear what is supposed to be a native's pronunciation which reduces the relevance of a pronunciation guide in the introduction. Unless I have natives' recording of a phoneme or IPA, I'm resigned to thinking of pronunciation guides as a rules of thumb for pronouncing sounds in a foreign language. I've actually been thinking about this problem recently when devising guides on how to pronounce the graphemes of Finnish, Estonian, Northern Saami, Meadow Mari and Hungarian. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4488 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 13 of 25 22 October 2012 at 10:12am | IP Logged | |||||
FSI substitutes a "sh" for it which I know for a fact is not true. Some people almost pronounce it as "ch", but it's something in between. I can more or less produce something that will be understandable to most Swedish speakers, but whether it's exactly correct I leave up to you. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6690 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 14 of 25 22 October 2012 at 11:07am | IP Logged | |||||
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It is possible to use an English /sh/ for all the spellings (sj, stj, sk, sch, kj, tj) but it's quite uncommon in Sweden (it sounds either posh or Northern), but what I think you're after is an explanation for the [ɧ]. At times when I've made corrections on LiveMocha, I've explained the as "similar to when you're cooling a cup of hot chocolate".
By the way, even if you get this sound, never use it for the tj or kj (those are always /sh/, unless you speaking Finland-Swedish). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4488 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 15 of 25 22 October 2012 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Yeah, I use something close to that. My teacher says my pronunciation is quite good. It's
just a complicated sound, and it is notoriously tricky to always get right especially when I am speaking quickly (which I do not do often in Swedish). I noticed that the sounds are distinct for all the Swedish *I* have heard, so I'm going with a regular differentiated pronunciation. Edited by tarvos on 22 October 2012 at 4:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4837 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 16 of 25 22 October 2012 at 6:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
How can English monoglots pronounce [x]? they pronounce [lok] even when they speak Irish. Most statements "this sound in one language is this one in another" without any further explanations are wrong. I saw wonderful Serbo-Croatian č is like "ch" in "church", and ć is ch in chick! Everyone started arguing with me that such explanations are OK. Edited by Марк on 22 October 2012 at 6:51pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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