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Which Romance language to self teach? | ||
Tags: Romance Languages | Italian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5018 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 9 of 16 06 November 2012 at 11:45am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
That's the three languages I'm interested in :)
I would not call Italian's verbal system "relatively easy" - in my experience it's significantly more difficult than that of French. Lots of forms to learn, plenty irregularity, the past participle agreement system is a bit awkward, and the logic for the subjunctive and imperative forms is pretty confusing. French shares the first three of these, but many of the different verb forms are pronounced the same, so you don't have to think about them as much when you speak :). I also find Italian's object pronouns much more confusing, especially when they combine with each other and with verbs. I've studied almost no Spanish so I can't comment on that; from what I gather, Spanish has even more verb forms to learn and more irregularities, but the compound tenses are simpler as there's just one auxiliary verb and no agreement. I've also heard that the Spanish subjunctive causes nightmares, whereas in Italian it's fine once you understand how to form it and in French I found it downright easy. And yes, French is by far the most difficult to pronounce, and it's not helpful that most books, courses, and teachers teach the pronunciation very badly, if at all. All that said though, I think that they're really six and half a dozen in terms of complexity: the difficulties mostly balance out, and despite a lot of subtle differences, they all have quite similar grammar. So I wouldn't let difficulty be a deciding factor. A much more important factor, especially once you get beyond the beginner stage, is finding opportunities to speak and practice the language. In that respect, Spanish wins by a country mile, at least for me - in my city, Spanish speakers are very numerous and generally very helpful and friendly, to the point where they often offer to help me with Spanish before even finding out that I have any interest in languages, while finding French and Italians who're willing to talk to me is quite an effort. This obviously varies depending on where you live. I also did a few years of French at high school. It definitely helps, and it makes the prospect a whole lot less scary knowing that you already have a bit of basic knowledge at the back of your mind. But on the other hand, if your French classes were of the usual school standard, you probably learned less in these few years than you could in a couple of months of self-teaching, and also, knowing some basic French will also make the other two languages easier to pick up. Personally my long-term goal is to speak all three, so it was just a question of which order. I started with French because I had done some at school and because I seem to travel to France quite frequently; and while Spanish would have been the practical and logical next choice, between its utility and the ease of finding people to practice it with, a short trip to Italy a couple of years ago made me change my mind :). 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| 11thHeaven Newbie United Kingdom Joined 4472 days ago 6 posts - 6 votes Studies: English | Message 10 of 16 06 November 2012 at 1:26pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Thanks for the reply - can I ask what resources you used to self-study Italian, and how you did it? I'm a complete newbie to self learning languages so I need all the help I can get. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4479 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 11 of 16 06 November 2012 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Italian is a bit more difficult than Spanish,
1. AVERE vs ESSERE for the past tenses 2. Open and closed E's and O's to pronounce (7 vowels in total), double consonants to write and to pronounce 3. Prepositions are difficult, in Spanish they're much more logical: ir A Italia, ir Al bar in Italian: andare in Italia, andare al bar... In Italian, the preposition is a function of a noun, in Spanish it's a function of the verb: It: Essere a Roma, Essere in Italia, Andare a Roma, Andare in Italia Sp: Estar em Roma, Estar en Italia, Ir a Roma, Ir a Italia Edited by Medulin on 06 November 2012 at 2:05pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5343 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 12 of 16 06 November 2012 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Italian is a fun language! I haven't studied it in years, so I can't offer you much advice about what resources to use. But I can talk a little bit about how I taught myself French. (I've been meaning to write this up for a while.) The first thing to realize is that there are dozens of ways to learn a language, and most of them work just fine. (Except maybe Rosetta Stone.) And if you have to choose between a somewhat inefficient method that you really enjoy, and an efficient method that you hate, you're better off doing what you like, because you'll be able to stick with it more easily. Which brings us to the big challenge of language learning: You've got to keep working at it regularly. This isn't a sprint—it's a marathon, or perhaps the Appalachian Trail. The Appalachian Trail trail seems pretty crazy—it's 2,184 miles from Georgia to Maine—but even retired grandmothers and life-long couch potatoes hike it. The people who finish the trail aren't necessarily young, or physically fit, or the owners of expensive hiking gear. They're the people who wake up morning and put one foot in front of the other. So before you start this journey, ask yourself, "What can I do to make sure I keep on going?" As for the learning process, I personally like to think of it as 3 separate stages. Stage 1: Learning the basics. At first, you have no idea where to start. Everything pretty much incomprehensible, except maybe some big, intellectual words that are almost the same in both languages. What you need to learn: How does the language fit together? What are the most common 1,000 to 2,000 words, and what do they mean? What are the most important verb forms? You can learn most of this either through exposure (with a few grammar notes here and there), or by seeing everything laid out logically and memorizing it. Your choice. Good resources: The Assimil courses are really great at this stage, because they provide lots of exposure to the language, and they're arranged in nice, bite-sized lessons so you can do one lesson every day. Assimil includes some grammar explanations, but mostly it provides you with good examples of how the language works. Some people also like Michel Thomas, which will give you a short but intense overview of how verbs work. Other popular choices around here are FSI (free but hardcore) and Pimsleur. Your goal: Carry on basic conversations, read books with a dictionary. How long does it take: Maybe 20 to 60 minutes per day for 6 months for a Romance language, if you use Assimil. Stage 2: Becoming independent. Now that you can actually talk to people and read books (though both are still pretty challenging), you need to broaden and deepen your skills until you can function independently in your new language. What you need to learn: You need to learn to speak automatically, without thinking about every word, and to understand when people speak to you. You need to learn to write, and to read faster and with more precision. Good resources: At this stage, courses will play a smaller role in your learning. You'll rely more and more on real books, on clear recordings (like news announcers), and on simply talking to people. You'll still need to firm up your grammar, but a lot of your time will be spent practicing, listening, and enjoying the language. It helps to have a good source for fun books and films, because you'll be able to turn any book into a textbook simply by Googling stuff you don't understand. Accurate foreign-language subtitles are great if you can get them. Your goal: To be able to handle yourself in a wide range of situations, to be able to defend your ideas (not necessarily well!), and to be able to read books for pleasure. Towards the end, you should finally be able to watch TV and understand most of what's going on. At this point, you could theoretically go to a university which spoke your new language, but it would be very hard at first! How long does it take: Anywhere from a few months of focused obsession to 5 years of classes. Stage 3: Getting good. At this point, you are fully functional in your new language, but it's finally sinking in just how amazing native speakers really are. You can do pretty much anything you want, with sufficient effort, but it still takes that effort. (This is the stage I'm currently entering.) What you need to learn: Speed, precision, nuance. How to hold your own in a group of native speakers. Words like "saddle" and "reef" and "money belt". Three different words for "summer cabin." All those weird expressions, and the words which inevitably go together, like "tomorrow's the big game" in American English. Advanced listening comprehension—it's not enough to mostly understand TV; you want to get every word. And what about all those cultural references? Good resources: Good classes and courses are few and far between at this point, though they are rumored to exist. You'll want a steady diet of books and TV shows and movies and talking and everything else. One excellent resource, or so I'm told, is to actually take university classes taught in your new language. Your goal: It's up to you, really. How long does it take: Anywhere from years to a lifetime, depending on your goals and your efforts. Or so I'm told. 9 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4655 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 13 of 16 06 November 2012 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
That's why I compared it to Spanish. :) But, anyway, in my experience Italian verbs are not more difficult than the French ones. You've got all the problems with agreement, irregularities, and plenty of verb forms in French, too, except that you only write most of that but don't pronounce it. This makes writing French more difficult than writing Italian, not to mention the problems of French "liaison". Moreover, I don't think the Italian subjunctive or object pronouns are more illogical than their French counterparts, while the Spanish verbal system is - in my opinion - much more complicated than the French or Italian one. There's the problem with the preterito, which is much more alive than the passé simple or the passato remoto, and the subjunctive is more complicated, too. And let's not forget, there is the difference between "ser" and "estar", which doesn't exist in French and Italian either. You're right insofar as one shouldn't make one's decision depending on how "difficult" a language is. But if there's no preference for a special language, I'd recommend choosing one that's easily accessible for the beginner, and that's in my opinion Italian. No language is inherently easier than the other, and Italian has its complexities as well, but it's a very rewarding language for the beginning student, I think. And as the OP favours Italian over the other two, I think he should stick to his decision. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5018 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 14 of 16 06 November 2012 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
You're probably right. We did a lot of verb study (at least of the basic forms) and writing at school so a lot of my "learning" of French verbs was really just revision and building on that, whereas for Italian it was all new to me and far more recent. So it's quite hard to do a fair comparison. I stand by what I said about imperatives/subjunctives/pronouns though, especially since these are things that I either didn't learn at school (subjunctive) or were taught so badly that I never got the hang of them (pronouns). Logical, but the logic's more complicated to me and often throws me off and causes me to pause when I'm speaking. Especially the "tu" imperative and the "lei" imperative/subjunctive having the opposite endings for -are verbs from for -ire/ere verbs. Could just seem harder because of less practice though, since I've been studying French for a lot longer. Especially once you factor the French writing difficulties in, they probably are about equal. As far Spanish, I don't have a clue, I'll let others debate that one out ;).
The resources I used were the old favourites, Michel Thomas and then Assimil, plus some reading about pronunciation at the start since I'm the sort of person who needs all aspects of pronunciation to be explained in detail in order to have any hope of a half-decent accent. The process is mostly as emk described - an Assimil lesson per day over a period of a few months, and then adding in more media and conversations. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| SnowManR1 Groupie United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5299 days ago 53 posts - 95 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew | Message 15 of 16 07 November 2012 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I'd say choose Italian, because unlike some on this forum, I would never try and learn a language based on the number of speakers. Just because French and Spanish have more speakers doesn't make Italian less appealing...at least not to me. Plus 70 million or so people is not a small number by any means.
Linguaphone: Beginner to Advance; They say it takes you from A1 to C1. It's similar to Assimil, but longer texts and more/better explanations. Assimil: Italian With Ease; A1 to B1/B2 Pimsleur: Level I, II, III, IV; A1 to A2/B1 Michel Thomas: Foundation, Advance and Language Builder; Avoid the Introductory Course, because the first 15 lessons in the Foundation Course is the Introductory Course, so if you buy the Foundation Course you basicly bought the Introductory Course as well; A1 to B1 Barron's Books: They have some awesome books containing Idioms, Verbs, Dictionary, Vocabulary and Slang. Plus they have a "Mastering Grammar" book that's awesome. Amazon: I suggest buying a textbook and using it as a guide through your self learning. I use "Ciao!", but "Prego!" is good as well; A1 to B2/C1 iTunes: SBS Radio. It's free and full of audio to help you get familiar with the language. I use all these methods, but one would be better than the other once I knew your goal. Since you're new, the A1, B1, C1, etc. is the CEFR or Common European Framework of Reference. It's just a way of seeing where you're in a language. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| 11thHeaven Newbie United Kingdom Joined 4472 days ago 6 posts - 6 votes Studies: English | Message 16 of 16 07 November 2012 at 10:23pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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You guys are great, thanks a lot! :)
1 person has voted this message useful |
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