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TAC 2013 Croatian Team DIVAN | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Fazla Hexaglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6073 days ago 166 posts - 255 votes  Speaks: Italian, Serbo-Croatian*, English, Russian, Portuguese, French Studies: Arabic (classical), German, Turkish, Mandarin | Message 49 of 89 17 January 2013 at 11:52am | IP Logged | |||||
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Recimo ovako, "bosanski" i na zvaničnom nivou se u biti ne razlikuje mnogo od srpskog ili hrvatskog iako bih rekao da je sličniji srpskom nego hrvatskom mada se situacija dosta mjenja od rata na ovamo, npr. sve češće čitam kako ljudi pišu "tko" ili koriste neke hrvatske izraze međutim to nije nikakva visokorasprostranjena pojava.
Situacija se mjenja na govornom nivou, gdje se koriste mnoge riječi koje se nebi nikad koristile u zvaničnom govoru i ponovo, na govornom nivou Sarajevski dijalekt igra veoma važnu ulogu, prvenstveno jer u BiH većina većih medija se nalazi upravo u Sarajevu, em zvanična televizija em naprimjer sjedište Al Jazeere Balkans i drugih medija. Neke od najgledanijih serija i van bosne koje koriste glumce iz svih zemalja ex yu kao "Lud zbunjen normalan" koju svima savjetujem, smještene su u Sarajevu i njihovi glumci trebaju da nauče da pričaju na taj poseban Sarajevski način. Sarajevski pjevači su bili i u doba jugoslavije poznati svugdje tako da mnogima kad asociraš bosanski govor, odmah ga asociraš na sarajevski govor. Dio riječi tog posebnog sarajevskog govora i jesu turcizmi, mada nisu rasprostanjeni ni u tolikoj mjeri kao što bi neko pomislio čitajući po internetu. Mnogo zavisi i od čovjeka do čovjeka, jer u bosni, kao i u drugim zemljama bivše juge dešavaju se interesantne jezičke promjene i upravo se to dešava i u sarajevu. Primjera radi, neke riječi koje ćeš moći čuti su: Insan (ar) - čovjek Merak (tr) - užitak Mašala (ar) - wow, compliments, what a good thing Halaliti (ar) - to forgive Bilmez (tr) - ignorant Hajirli (tr, ar) - good Berićetno (tr) - blessed Hanuma (pr, tr) - woman, married woman Amidža (tr) - paternal uncle Dajdža (tr) - maternal uncle Dženaza (ar, tr) - funeral Rahmetli (ar, tr) - dead person This is just an example. Some words are actually Arabic by nature, but then were incorporated into Turkish and from Turkish went into Bosnian, yet they are all labelled as "turcizmi". The majority of these words have some connection to religion, even if indirect; what I want to say is that they usually deal with the sphere of influence of religion in the past, that is birth, death, morals, ethics, family life. What is funny is that you can in a way even distinguish how somebody from the old ottoman part of Sarajevo (if he or she was born and raised by a family who lived there since generations) speaks as compared to some other parts of the city, as people there tend to use "turcizmi" much more feeling they keep the ottoman tradition of the city. The register used changes as social situations change, meaning that if you say that you are a foreigner who studied Croatian, nobody will harass you with too many "turcizmi" as generally they do have a "slavic" equivalent, except some that are really hard to translate (merak, ćejf). The turcizmi are really much present in old folklore songs sevdalinke, which is normal as that is the way people really spoke in the past. This song is a really good example, it's a new song but with an old "flavour" effectively being categorized as a Sevdalinka http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvg5qZQPzoI Kada akšam nad šeherom pada Kad se svjetla po mahali pale A i sofra za večeru sprema nigdje tako ko u Bosni nema (2x) just the very first part has already 4 words that would be classified as turcizmi. As an example, I myself would not use akšam, preferring večer instead (it means evening), šeher means city BUT nowadays it's used as a synonym for Sarajevo, mahala is something like "neighbourhood, street", very very much used, sofra is like a table full of meals. Also in Bosnian you will hear a lot more the use of aorist, pođoh, dođoh, odoh, vratih se etc. Edited by Fazla on 17 January 2013 at 11:55am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Fazla Hexaglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6073 days ago 166 posts - 255 votes Speaks: Italian, Serbo-Croatian*, English, Russian, Portuguese, French Studies: Arabic (classical), German, Turkish, Mandarin | Message 50 of 89 17 January 2013 at 11:53am | IP Logged | |||||
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Zaista ne znam šta mi bi, zašto sam prešao na Engleski dok sam pisao! Izvinjavam se, neće se ponoviti ubuduće!
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JohannaNYC Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4263 days ago 251 posts - 361 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, Italian Studies: Croatian, Serbian, Arabic (Egyptian) | Message 51 of 89 17 January 2013 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | |||||
It's actually easier if you write in English as some of us range from new beginner to a few months of self-study. Or write however it wants to come out :) Why did you write "na Engleski" as opposed to "na Engleskom"? Is it based on context or tense? Thanks for the previous post, I'll keep the list in mind when watching "Lud, Zbunjen, Normalan", I love that show! Also what does "visokorasprostranjena" mean? Google translate doesn't know. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| JohannaNYC Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4263 days ago 251 posts - 361 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, Italian Studies: Croatian, Serbian, Arabic (Egyptian) | Message 52 of 89 17 January 2013 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The Croats I know also use ko, supposedly is short for tko. Yet they insist that,
although closely related, Serbian is a different language. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6967 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 53 of 89 17 January 2013 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
It can be interpreted to mean "(highly) widespread". (nitpicking: "highly widespread" seems tautological to me). Whenever I saw long words when I was a beginner in BCMS/SC (or pretty much any of my languages independently), I tried to look for some pattern or recognizable elements. In this example, I would analyze visokorasprostranjena as a compound that begins with visoko (cf. visoki "high"). The next element that I could pick up is ras (cf. ras-/raz- as in raspoznati "to recognize, tell apart" (literally "to apart-recognize") or razvoditi "to divorce" (literally "to apart-lead")). When I look at my old SC-English dictionary, I see that rasprostranjen/a/o means "widespread" which makes sense, and also makes me think that prostranjen/a/o has something to do with sides, dimensions or discrete entries (cf. strana "side; slope etc."). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Fazla Hexaglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6073 days ago 166 posts - 255 votes Speaks: Italian, Serbo-Croatian*, English, Russian, Portuguese, French Studies: Arabic (classical), German, Turkish, Mandarin | Message 54 of 89 17 January 2013 at 5:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Exactly what Chung said.
Johanna I used "na Engleski" as that is the accusative form which is needed as I am coming "from a language to another language". I would say "ja pricam na Engleskom" but "ja volim Engleski". I am not that good in explaining grammar, I hope you understand what I mean, this is something common to every slavic language. I really don't know how to explain it, just how to use it. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Danac Diglot Senior Member Denmark Joined 5159 days ago 162 posts - 257 votes Speaks: Danish*, English Studies: German, Serbo-Croatian, French, Russian, Esperanto | Message 55 of 89 17 January 2013 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
If we look at the sentence in which "na engleski" (never capitalized, btw) is used, (zašto sam prešao na engleski - why I crossed over into English) it makes sense grammatically because of the motion in the verb, or perhaps because na is rather "into" than "in" here. Since we're talking about motion here, at least metaphorically, na is not used with the locative, but with the accusative. It's the same thing with u and other prepositions like pod, nad and pred (although the last 3 switch between accusative and instrumental). Usput, hvala na doprinosu, Fazla. Mislim da si nam dobro opisao, kako ide s turcizmima uglavnom na bosanskom, odnosno u Bosni. Jedino što mogu kritikovati barem malo ja da svi turcizmi nisu ili turskog ili arapskog porijekla nego i perzijskog. Ne znam jesi li ikad koristio taj rječnik "Turcizmi u Srpskohrvatskom Jeziku" (Abdulah Škaljić), ali to je moj spas u vezi svega što obuhvaća turcizme, a mogu se u njemu naći i etimologije svih riječi. Pored toga, ne znam koliko turcizama se mora uključiti u spisku najvažnijih, ali preskočio si neke koje smatram ja važnim ili koji su u opštoj upotrebi čak i danas, i ne samo u Bosni. Jastuk - pillow Čaršaf, čaršav - bed sheet Dušek - mattress Mušterija - customer Kašika - spoon Fukara - a poor person; scoundrel Kopile - bastard, illegitimate child Bašta, bašća - garden Duhan, duvan - tobacco Bunar - well (for water) Buraz, burazer - brother, friend Boja - color Murija - police Dernek - good times, fun, partying Jaran - friend Džep - pocket Kapija - gate, entrance Čizma - boot Edited by Danac on 17 January 2013 at 5:53pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6967 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 56 of 89 17 January 2013 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, there is that Slavonic advantage. :-) As a rule of thumb, na which can take accusative or dative/locative, the accusative governance by that preposition suggests motion (figurative or literal), while the dative/locative governance suggests position [figurative or literal]. U works somewhat similarly. Pričam na engleskom "I speak in[/on/at] English (language)" [figurative position] Prešao sam na engleski "I switched to English (language)" [figurative motion] Dolazim u Sarajevo "I am coming to Sarajevo" (motion - use accusative) Bit ću u Sarajevu "I'll be in Sarajevo" (position - use dative/locative) BUT common exception: U subotu ću biti u Tuzli. Nedolazim u Tuzlu danas. "On Saturday I will be in Tuzla. I am not coming to Tuzla today." (subota: subotu (acc.), suboti (dat./loc.), Tuzla: Tuzlu (acc.), Tuzli (dat./loc.)) Even though there's no obvious sense of motion involved with a day of the week, the pattern in all Slavonic languages that I've studied is that the preposition v/u governs accusative when it's immediately followed by a day of the week. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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