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Tiktok’s TAC 2013 Estonian Log jäŋe/ledús | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Tedmac278 Triglot Newbie United States Joined 4099 days ago 23 posts - 38 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Estonian | Message 25 of 36 31 May 2013 at 7:25am | IP Logged | ||
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Hi Tiktok!
Great to hear details from your trip and that it was a success! I've been very absent from this board the last couple months, but I will still keep watching your progress. Unfortunately, I've had to temper my enthusiasm for Estonian. It seems I've fallen victim to language wanderlust. I realize now that it would be silly of me to seriously dive into a new language right now because my German learning is not yet "finished". I have a solid foundation in German, but I haven't nearly reached the level I'd like to be at. I have very ambitious learning plans for the next 4.5 months. Including multiple extended trips to Deutschland. So if all goes well, sometime afterwards I will begin studying Estonian in earnest and plan my first trip to Eesti sometime next year. I promise this is just temporary and not the end for me and Estonian! In the mean time I think I need to start a German language learning log/blog. So when are you going back? It sounds like you have another tirp right around the corner? Palju õnne! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiktok Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 4935 days ago 29 posts - 40 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Estonian Personal Language Map | Message 26 of 36 10 June 2013 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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Good to hear from you Tedmac278 - I will be back in Estonia in 10 days time. I am there for three weeks this time so plenty of opportunity to learn and practice again :)
I think you will find the amount of German influence on Estonian quite interesting when you do finally get around to trying it. There are a quite a few recognisable loan words and seemingly German like grammer constructions in some instances. Edited by Tiktok on 10 June 2013 at 8:51pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiktok Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 4935 days ago 29 posts - 40 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Estonian Personal Language Map | Message 27 of 36 10 June 2013 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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Estonian Update
Work has once again got in the way of my study routine despite my best intentions but Ihave managed to dedicate Saturday and Sunday mornings to reading my two Estonian grammars which has been very useful in boosting my reading. When I am not studying I also like to walk and suddenly realised last week that I always have my mobile phone with me which has a large enough memory to hold several audio books. This has given me 15 hours free listening practice in the last week with Mees, kes teadis ussisõnu (The man who knew snake language) which is a great story and has a very godo narrator who I can understand very well now. I have read the print version of the book before and can follow the story quite easily at a good spoken pace now. This weekend, I came across a grammatical form in both my Estonian grammars (written in Estonian) which I have not seen in Tuldava's Estonian Textbook. The case form used the alalütlev (on-saying or adessive) case in a way that I didn't understand and both books gave just one example with a rather cryptic description : The first example - "Lastel tuli õppima hakata" - the book (Eesti keele struktuur) says Alalütlev väljendab tegevussubjekti, kui tegunsõna on ma- või da-tegevusnimes. The second example from my other textbook (Eesti keele käsi raamat)- "Luba tal ükskord ometi kõik südamelt ära rääkida" with this description - Alaütlev käände olulisi funktsioone tänapäeva keeles on väljendada tegevussubjekti infiittarindeis. After trying and failing to make sense of the descriptions with the single examples, I resorted to asking an Estonian friend who gave me the following wonderful reply which I share here with anyone else struggling through Estonian : The explanations in your book are really made by someone who hates people. I'll try. 1) ma or da represents "do to what-to study". In English the equivalent is "the kids had to start studying". In estonian the subjective in this case is more like possessing the activity, similar to: "lastel on vaja kooli minna" (the kids have to go to school). More examples: "tavil on vaja jooksma hakata" ( dave needs to start running, then its "tavil"). "tavi peab jooksma hakkama" (tavi has to run, just noun) "tavil on vaja hakata jooksmas käima" (tavi needs to start going running). the l ending version often goes when someone needs to to smth, in a commandive way. 2) Its a more complicated version. luba tal - allow him. luba ta - allow him. Hard to explain because in English they have sort of the same translation. "luba ta õue" - allow him to go out. "luba tal rääkida" - allow him to speak. he is the owner of the action. In first case the person is the subject, in another case more owner of the action. "luba ta tuppa" - allow him to the room (he is the subject but not doing anything). "luba tal tuppa tulla" - allow him to Enter the room (he owns the entering process and he is the subject of the sentence). "luba ta ära rääkida" - allow to talk him over ( for example, into changing his mind) "luba tal ära rääkida" - allow him to talk over smth. ("allow him to also talk"). "luba rääkida" - allow to talk. (like in a meeting if you want to say smth, "i ask for a permission to speak). It shows the guy who is doing smth and also the subject of the sentence. shows some need "tal on vaja" (he needs.., he owns the need). "tal on seda vaja" (he needs that) "ta vajab seda" (he needs that). Same thing said in different ways, both are ok. Your first sentence in a different but also correct way, saying the same thing but without ma/da form so no alaleütlev kääne needed: "lapsed pidid õppima hakkama" vs "lastel tuli õppima hakata" More examples: "rihol on vaja kududa" (riho needs to knit) "luba ta õue" - allow him out. "luba tal õue minna" - allow him to go out, he owns the process of going out. allowing smth: "luba tal minna" (allow him to go) needing smth: "mul on sind vaja" (i need you) having to to do smth: "neil tuli hakata õppima" (they had to study, basically same as "nad pidid hakkama õppima"). mul on vaja minna - i need to go. "ma pean minema" - i have to go. Most of them can be replaced by a different sentence stating the same thing: mul on vaja poodi minna (i need to go to the shop) ma pean poodi minema (i have to go to the shop) I think i made it worse now. I'll try to think of a more decent explanation : "neil tuleb joosta" (they have the need for running, so they need to (start to) run). "neil on vaja joosta" "nad peavad jooksma" (they have to/must run). The meaning of the sentences is the same, in first case they "own" the need for running. Using this version, it often shows that there is a reason behind that. "neil tuleb joosta, sest nad röövisid panka" (they have the need for running because they robbed the bank) "ta peab jooksma, sest ta röövis panka" (he has to run, because he robbed the bank) This bit clinched it for me : "It shows the guy who is doing smth and also the subject of the sentence. shows some need "tal on vaja" (he needs.., he owns the need)." A least that niggle is out of the way - I find it quite distracting when I get stuck on a grammar point as I just keep coming back time and again trying to chip my way inside it. Only 10 more days until I return to Estonia now, so lots more listening and hopefully a little more writing depending on work. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| sans-serif Tetraglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4358 days ago 298 posts - 470 votes  Speaks: Finnish*, English, German, Swedish Studies: Danish | Message 28 of 36 10 June 2013 at 10:31pm | IP Logged | ||
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That was a fascinating read. I wish I had a better grasp of Estonian cases and moods, but from what I can tell, many of these forms are what we call "experiencer clauses" in Finnish (ours typically use the partitive instead of the adessive). What that means is that most of your friend's examples don't actually have a subject of any kind; the pronouns are (probably) either objects or adverbials of some kind.
Not that it makes much difference, really, but I happen to be quite fond of such constructions, and couldn't help commenting. ;-) Edited by sans-serif on 10 June 2013 at 10:38pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiktok Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 4935 days ago 29 posts - 40 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Estonian Personal Language Map | Message 29 of 36 10 June 2013 at 10:54pm | IP Logged | ||
Thank you for your input sans-serif. Yes, I too was amazed when I got such a detailed reply to my question and just had to share it here :) I thought I had got a good handle of Estonian grammar and suddenly find that there is a very interesting use of a case which I have probably seen used hundreds of times but not realised how interesting it actually was. This one is certainly goign to be somethign to look into in more depth now I know it actually exists. Another point my friend made, which I didn't realise until I started seriously studying a language : - luba tal - allow him. luba ta - allow him. Hard to explain because in English they have sort of the same translation. I had long thought that you must be able to express one languages meanings in another language only to discover over the last few years that there are many subtleties of expression that simply do not translate at all. I find these small things incredibly interesting when I do discover them and it makes the whole long slog seem much more worth following! Now, if only I could find the time to start discovering Finnish as well (and German, Swedish, Russian .....) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiktok Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 4935 days ago 29 posts - 40 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Estonian Personal Language Map | Message 30 of 36 20 June 2013 at 11:12pm | IP Logged | ||
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Estonian Update
The weeks seem to fly by with work these days and I suddenly find that the seven week gap between my trips to Estonia this year has all but gone. Travelling tomorrow and then three whole weeks in Estonia to enjoy some much more Summery weather than we have been having here in the UK. I don't feel that I have kept my Estonian alive as much as I had hoped when I arrived back after my last trip due to disruption to what was my study schedule but I do feel that I have made soem important steps. Firstly, my listening comprehension has definitely improved through listening to audio books whilst walking - I have probably had a godo 25 hours of listenign practice in the last few weeks and can get a lot more out of TV and Radio news clips than before. Secondly, I have managed to get a lot of reading done on numerous train journeys for work and have read through one complete Estonian grammar several times now from which I have picked up quite a few new thought processes when producing Estonian. This weekend in Estonia is the national holiday jaanipäev or St John's day when Estonians celebrate the Summer solstice. I am visiting a small village with soem of my Estonian friends where firejumping and swinging competitions will certainly be on the agenda. It will also give me a good opportunity to practice my Estonian as I will be amongst several hundred natives in full party mood. I will soon see where I am on my journey to learning Estonian and hopefully will also get another few laps of the journey out of the way! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6955 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 31 of 36 21 June 2013 at 12:06am | IP Logged | ||
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I never did progress that far in Estonian even though I completed TY Estonian but it's still interesting to find out about this and try to see where it coincides and differs from Finnish.
It seems to be a Balto-Finnic characteristic to use the verb meaning "to come" to translate sentences of obligation or necessity but what we English-speakers think of the subject who is under the obligation or need is expressed in Finnish with the genitive instead of the adessive as in Estonian. Cf. Finnish: Tiktokin tulee lähteä tänä iltana. "Tiktok must / has to leave this evening." However you can likely see the parallel in that the infinitive used after "tulee" is the first infinitive or the modern Finnish take of the ancestral infinitive that gave rise to the "-da" infinitive of Estonian. I too am off to a Midsummer's party with some friends in the countryside and I can almost smell the makkaroita (sausages) that I'll be grilling and feel the vihta / vasta (bundle of birch branches) with which I or my friends will beat me as I sit in the sauna before jumping in the lake. Head Jaanipäeva! / Hauskaa Juhannusta! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiktok Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 4935 days ago 29 posts - 40 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Estonian Personal Language Map | Message 32 of 36 09 September 2013 at 12:39am | IP Logged | ||
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An update to my somewhat neglected learnng log ...
Ilmselgelt, ma tulin tagasi Inglismaale ja jälle mul on liiga palju tööd. Chung - I hope you enjoyed your Midsummer party as much as I did :) I was surprised how well my Estonian worked while I was there in Summer. My understanding of spoken Estonian was rather good this time after spending some time with online TV shows and I managed to speak quite a lot including a few full Estonian only days which were both mentally challenging and fun at the same time. Unfortunately, I came back to the same work issues that I had before my trip which have eaten into my learning schedule leaving me with sneaking in the odd bit of reading here and there to keep my Estonian alive. I am back in Estonia for a long weekend in October so a refesher in speaking and listening to Estonian will arrive soon enough. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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