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"Der dir nun folgt" - Wagner | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| tennisfan Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5170 days ago 130 posts - 247 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, Spanish Studies: German | Message 1 of 8 02 February 2013 at 11:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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Just wondering if someone can explain what I'm missing here in a particular line from Wagner's Walkure. I'm a big opera fan, and being able to understand German librettos was one of the reasons I started learning German (little did I know that in fact very few people talk like they did in Wagner's/Strauss's/von Weber's operas!).
Anyway, I'm wondering about the usage of "der" in a line from Act 2 of Die Walkure. Brunnhilde has come to take Siegmund to Valhalla (his death), and she is telling him to follow him. He's scared, and reluctant. She says: "Siegmund! Sieh auf mich! Ich bin's, der bald du folgst." and he responds, asking her where she's taking him: "Der dir nun folgt, wohin führst du den Helden?" Usually I see this translated as "If I follow you"/"If he follows you." I'm wondering where this "if" is coming from, presumably "der" is referring to "der Held," but is the "wenn" implied? To a native German's ears, does this construction imply an "if" clause, or is it not understood? You can watch the scene here if it helps at all, although I don't know if it will: Todesverkündung Edited by tennisfan on 02 February 2013 at 11:42pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5108 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 2 of 8 03 February 2013 at 1:13am | IP Logged | ||
The normalized structure would be "Wohin führst du den Helden, der dir nun folgt?", so it is just a normal relative clause. Relative clauses - like participles in English, for example - have the advantage that they don't need to be too explicit about the intended meaning. Strictly speaking the interpretation is left to the listener, and the conditional "if" is not necessarily implied by this construction, but in this context a temporal or even better conditional meaning is pretty much beyond any doubt, so that the translator will in most cases choose it. Btw. many lines from Wagner's libretti became well known sayings, ("Niiiiiiie sollst du mich befraahaagen", Don't ask me, never ...), but in general I am more than happy that people never used to speak like his (in?)famous heroes and heroines ;-) Edited by lingoleng on 03 February 2013 at 1:16am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Fuenf_Katzen Diglot Senior Member United States notjustajd.wordpress Joined 4179 days ago 337 posts - 476 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Polish, Ukrainian, Afrikaans | Message 3 of 8 03 February 2013 at 2:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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I really can't add anything, but I just wanted to say that I'm so happy I'm not the only one who enjoys German opera (and by the way, I really like this scene too)!
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| tennisfan Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5170 days ago 130 posts - 247 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, Spanish Studies: German | Message 4 of 8 04 February 2013 at 2:08am | IP Logged | ||
I'm a big opera fan, I go usually 2-3 times a week, time/money/work permitting. :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6513 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 5 of 8 04 February 2013 at 11:54am | IP Logged | ||
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I can see the logic in "Der dir nun folgt, wohin führst du den Helden?", but not in "Siegmund! Sieh auf mich! Ich bin's, Der bald du folgst." (unless "folgen" can be constructed with a Dative in Wagnerian German).
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| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5108 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 6 of 8 04 February 2013 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | ||
"Folgen" is constructed with a dative, indeed: Ich folge dir. Sie folgten dem Reiseführer. Aus Gram folgte er wenig später seiner Frau in den Tod. Folgen Sie möglichst unauffällig dem gelben Taxi! "Verfolgen" and "befolgen" are constructed with accusative: Die Polizei verfolgte den Bankräuber. Ich befolge gerne deinen Rat. The rather rare "nachfolgen" with dative, again: Folge mir nach! Der begabte Sohn wird dem Handwerksmeister einst in der Ausübung des selten gewordenen Schmiedehandwerks nachfolgen. Edited by lingoleng on 04 February 2013 at 4:46pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4759 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 7 of 8 07 February 2013 at 2:52am | IP Logged | ||
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That's the first time I see that construction, a clause before an antecedent. Then again, I have only read standard modern literature and nothing classic yet.
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| Bismuth Triglot Newbie Germany Joined 4161 days ago 30 posts - 46 votes Speaks: German*, English, Russian Studies: Icelandic, Spanish | Message 8 of 8 10 February 2013 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | ||
I think that's quite weird as the disparities between classical German and modern German are way bigger than the disparities between classical English and modern English. Not reffering to Wagner, Strauss or Weber as their operas are fairly unknown to me. But if you have a look at lyricists like Goethe, Lessing, Büchner or even Schiller, you will notice how absurdly weird they are written from a German point of view. Just a few months ago I was reading Woyzeck from Georg Büchner and I will guarantee you that you will literally understand nothing if you are not familiar with German classic. I honestly have no idea, how somebody who is not raised in Germany or got a formidable education could understand such writings.. again: I'm not an opera fan at all, but if their works are lingually near any of those listed above, then I would really like you to have a look at Woyzeck especially. Learning German for the sake of understanding classic German literature and operas seems very splendid to me, but from an inside point of view I struggle to believe that this is possible within just a few years without any German background. I would really love to hear more about you and your command of understanding all this. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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