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What is reference grammar? | ||
Tags: Grammar | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Paco Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 4057 days ago 145 posts - 251 votes  Speaks: Cantonese* | Message 1 of 8 22 March 2013 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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This thread is, in fact, not asking the exact question as in the subject. I have done a
bit of searching, but there are still some points about grammar which are either unclear or unanswered. Thank you in advance for helping me out. Is there such a thing as "complete" reference grammar? Or does "reference grammar" already imply completeness? I have read that there are two major types of grammar, namely pedagogical and reference. I assume grammar books used in schools and the grammar-translation type manuals we always talk about are examples of pedagogical grammar. Am I wrong? I have also read that there are mainly two kinds of reference grammar, one of which is for native speaker to learn about their language; the other of which is for linguistic studies. If it is true, as an ESL user, is the latter one what I need? (I presume the "linguistic" reference grammar is an in-depth, thorough grammar which explains EVERY grammar feature and its meaning, which is suitable for review of a learner's progress in grammar; I also presume that the "native" reference grammar assumes absolutely correct, natural use of the language, which results in relatively little explanation on the meanings of linguistic features, thus makes it not so suitable for someone who is intended to CORRECT possibly undiscovered misconceptions.) Finally, would you mind suggesting some good works? Thank you. Edited by Paco on 22 March 2013 at 7:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5379 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes | Message 2 of 8 22 March 2013 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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You call it a "reference" grammar, because you cannot work through a book of this kind, but consult it, if you have a specific question.
I do not think that a "complete" grammar is possible, in the same way, as a "complete" dictionary is not possible. Grammars of which language are you looking for? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| FadedStardust Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5387 days ago 19 posts - 30 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: German, Dutch | Message 3 of 8 23 March 2013 at 3:10am | IP Logged | ||
The OP mentioned being an ESL user, so is seemingly looking for an English grammar. I will say, just from reading the post: Your grammar already seems impeccable, I think you could benefit from grammars meant for both language learners and native speakers. But yes, a reference grammar is a grammar you refer to with specific questions, not one you work through text book style. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6483 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 4 of 8 23 March 2013 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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As Cabaire points out the word 'reference' implies that the grammar in question is not meant to be read from cover to cover, but rather to be used for looking specific problems up. But the word also has at least other connotations, name 1) that it should contain basically anything you might fancy to look up, 2) that it should be the the reference works for everyone working in a specific field, i.e. its claims and informations should be taken into account in any scientific work on the subject.
The first sense of the word, i.e. something which isn't meant to be learnt section by section like a text book, actually covers most grammars. Among the few exceptions I have seen is the Teach Yourself Irish Grammar, and precisely because of its textbook structure I hate it. Instead I may study one chapter at a time in a conventional grammar, but not necessarily in a linear fashion, and always in conjunction with studies of specific problems in genuine sample texts. The second sense of the word, completeness, is impossible to achieve. There are of course some enormously detailed grammars out there (like "Le Bon Usage" for French), but they can't possibly take account of all structures used intentionally by each and any native speaker. And if they do, they will be so full of rare and dubious expressions that a language learner should use them with the utmost caution .. bordering on mistrust. And finally there is the elevated status which some grammatical works achieve. Maybe they are good, and for small languages a certain grammar might be the ONLY adequate description. But every writer has a certain perception about his/her task and a certain arsenal of preferred methods, and even a work written by a distinguished academy member and used on all 'good' universities should not be seen as the final truth about a language. Edited by Iversen on 23 March 2013 at 3:29pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4789 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 5 of 8 23 March 2013 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well, I wouldn't throw away non native grammars necessarily as some are pretty awesome
and may include interesting points no native would think of. It depends on the author. I have one such for French. There are grammar books with various kinds of exercises and reference books. Both include a lot of examples. And there is a third kind which tries to be both. For English, I have been using English Grammar in Use and Advanced Grammar in Use (and looooong ago the Essential Grammar in Use) published by Cambridge. They do have exercises but the later two, especially the last one (Advanced) are a good reference as well. This series is, in my opinion, the best one targetted at non natives and the format has been copied by other publishers. If you want something even more detailed, I'd suggest you got a grammar reference aimed at natives. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6377 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 6 of 8 23 March 2013 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yes, these are awesome!
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4689 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 7 of 8 25 March 2013 at 12:31am | IP Logged | ||
Which grammar is that? EDIT: Iversen, I have to thank you for something you mentioned in your post. I searched Amazon.co.uk for "Le bon usage", and found an mp3 listed called "Le Bon Usage Du Vent" by Tanger. I downloaded the whole album, and am loving it! The power of serendipity! Edited by Jeffers on 25 March 2013 at 12:59am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Paco Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 4057 days ago 145 posts - 251 votes Speaks: Cantonese* | Message 8 of 8 29 March 2013 at 4:01am | IP Logged | ||
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Thank you so much for the kind response.
I am sorry that my defining of "completeness" is ambiguous. I understand it is impossible (and impractical) to include every piece of corpus in real world. I refer to a reference work that will include both the prescriptive, "right" things and the most common usage in reality which most would regard as that language. As I am a logical-type learner (once I pass the intermediate level I would tuck in every grammar I am capable of), I actually have a motive to go over a reference work. Not really the two great works from Cambridge and Oxford which have 2000 pages each, but something else which half the size. I have found some reference grammars (500-1000 pages) which target at university students; I will go over the useful parts of 2 to 3 of them. And thank you for mentioning the In Use series. It doesn't look bad, and I would like to use the whole series, before reading literature, as a review and "addendum" to my English, where I am worried I might be a "false advanced". P.S. I always feel ashamed to tell others I am an advanced English learner because, though I can handle academic matters in most fields with ease, I can't read a novel with ease EVEN with a dictionary, and it's not unusual for me to struggle in a simple conversation about daily stuff...... Thank you again! Edited by Paco on 29 March 2013 at 4:02am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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