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Starting Devanagari: from which language? | ||
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| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 4986 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes  Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 1 of 6 08 May 2013 at 11:10pm | IP Logged |
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I'd like to start a language that uses the Devanagari script later on. Before going straight for Hindi, I was wondering if it's Hindi that uses devanagari in the most phonemic way or if that would be the case for Marathi or Nepali instead.
While we're at it, I'd like to know which book is recommended for learning devanagari, be it part of a hindi or sanskrit textbook or a standalone book. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4488 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 2 of 6 09 May 2013 at 12:27am | IP Logged |
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What professor Canepari (from University of Venice) says on [dew'naagri] & (spoken) Hindi:
'' Traditional devanagari script [de'wnaagri] is not of great help, unless one has already learnt it. On the other hand, it is more syllabic than alphabetic (and with a lot of monographs, indeed more than 150, in addition to the over 40 basic signs), for sequences of polyphonemic graphemes. Therefore, it is not suitable to indicate actual phonic structures in a simple way, with a further complication constituted by (short) inherent a, which is not written when preceded by C(onsonant) except in (some) transliterations. These transliterations are, basically, of two kinds: those that indicate /a/ only when it is really pronounced, and those that show every a (or very many), as for instance in ('måt-låb) /'matlab/matlab (or matalaba].However,the actual phonetic situation may be something in between, as can be seen in § 10.3.1.1 as well.'' http://venus.unive.it/canipa/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?id=p df&cache=cache&media=en:hpr_10_hindi.pdf From my experience, [dew'naagri] works best for Sanskrit, then for Nepali, and only then for Hindi: Sanskrit>Nepali>Hindi Hindi has a fair share of silent A's, but this is not predictable from the spelling. The name of Bollywood actress कंगना राणावत is sometimes written as Kangna Ranaut, and sometimes as Kangana Ranaut. In fact, she is Kangna, and not Kangana (as one might read from the spelling). But in Hindi, you never know when to sound a short A, and when not, because [dev'nagri] was made for Sanskrit, and not Hindi. In Sanskrit, all short A's are pronounced, according to the script (Devnagri), and this principle is more observed in Nepali than in Hindi. Even, the name of the script is affected by this: devanagaari देवनागरी is read [dew'naagri] in Hindi. And not [dewɜ'naagɜri] as in Sanskrit. ''Correct schwa deletion is also critical because, in some cases, the same devanagari letter sequence is pronounced two different ways in Hindi depending on context, and failure to delete the appropriate schwas can change the sense of the word.[26] For instance, the letter sequence 'रक' is pronounced differently in हरकत (har.kat, meaning movement or activity) and सरकना (sarak.na, meaning to slide). Similarly, the sequence धड़कने in दिल धड़कने लगा (the heart started beating) and in दिल की धड़कनें (beats of the heart) is identical prior to the nasalization in the second usage. Yet, it is pronounced dhadak.ne in the first and dhad.kane in the second.[26] While native speakers correctly pronounce the sequences differently in different contexts, non-native speakers and voice-synthesis software can make them "sound very unnatural", making it "extremely difficult for the listener" to grasp the intended meaning.'' (Wiki) Another ''problem'' in [dew'nagri] applied to Hindi is inconsistent treatment/indication of nasal vowels. --- When Indians say, [dew'nagri] is a superb script for Hindi, they mean it in a relative way, as in compared to Bengali script for Bengali language. But in an absolute way, it is very far from perfect (as I said before: कंगना राणावत is almost always incorrectly rendered as Kangana Ranaut instead of correct: Kangna Renaut; so even natives make mistakes when it comes to less frequent words and personal names, because the script is far from perfect when it comes to short A [ɜ]. When Hindi is written in Latin script (in Bollywood screenplays, lyrics of Bollywood music, in chatrooms, on forums), only pronounced A's are written, the silent ones are not. Edited by Medulin on 09 May 2013 at 1:15am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 4986 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 3 of 6 09 May 2013 at 2:47am | IP Logged |
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Thank you, it's very helpful, now I'm more inclined towards Nepali ;) I like TY Nepali and maybe I could start by that.
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| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5419 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes | Message 4 of 6 09 May 2013 at 2:49am | IP Logged |
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If she is called Kangna, why is the name not written कंग्ना instead of कंगन. Etymological reasons? Avoidance of ligatures?
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| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5165 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 5 of 6 09 May 2013 at 3:01am | IP Logged |
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As already explained by Medulin, words in Hindi are not always pronounced strictly as their orthography would suggest. If I may opine however studying a language in order to learn its script is doing things backwards. It would be more reasonable to simply pick the language you wish to learn the most; while demanding at first, very soon you'll become comfortable with Devanagari so it is best not to make an issue of it.
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| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 4986 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 6 of 6 09 May 2013 at 6:02pm | IP Logged |
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Well, in fact both Hindi and Nepali are on plans, and I just want to start with the more phonemic one.
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