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Shared vocabulary of Italian, German, and Russian

 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room Post Reply
24 messages over 3 pages: 13  Next >>
Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
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 Message 9 of 24
30 May 2013 at 2:21pm | IP Logged 
But is it certainly proved that Italian and German have more recognizable cognates than
Italian and Russian?
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tarvos
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 Message 10 of 24
30 May 2013 at 4:11pm | IP Logged 
What is a "recognisable cognate", and how would you go about counting the words?

What would constitute proof in your eyes?
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Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
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Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 11 of 24
30 May 2013 at 4:32pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
What is a "recognisable cognate", and how would you go about counting the
words?

What would constitute proof in your eyes?

I don't know but how did Volte and others determine that Italian shares more common
vocabulary with German than with Russian?
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Serpent
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serpent-849.livejour
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 Message 12 of 24
30 May 2013 at 4:48pm | IP Logged 
Based on our experience with the languages. There are quite many international words that Russian doesn't use, for example helicopter. Italian and German tend to use them also when Russian doesn't (elicottero, Helikopter).
Of course you can find all sort of examples between the three languages. Russian and German both borrowed the English word football, whereas Italian uses the name of the game played in Florence in the 16th century (calcio). But this is more of an exception.
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tarvos
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Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
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 Message 13 of 24
30 May 2013 at 5:14pm | IP Logged 
Is Fussball a borrowing or a calque or even just how you say it, given the Germanic roots
of German and English? (it is cognate for sure)

Quote:
I don't know but how did Volte and others determine that Italian shares more
common vocabulary with German than with Russian?


My guess is that there is etymological evidence for this. But that is naught but an
informed guess. But you do know that German and Italian share a linguistic border, so
there is bound to be crossover.

Edited by tarvos on 30 May 2013 at 5:16pm

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Volte
Tetraglot
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Switzerland
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 Message 14 of 24
30 May 2013 at 5:23pm | IP Logged 
Марк: I determined it by studying both Russian and German, and fluently speaking Italian. The similarities and differences between languages become obvious with surprisingly little study. It's obvious that Italian is a lot closer to Spanish than it is to English; it's almost as obvious than Italian is closer to German than it is to Russian, that it's related to both, and that it's not very close to either. If you want it quantified, that can be done to various degrees with corpora, from a page of text to some more representative sample of the language - but I don't intend to spend hours doing that; I'd be shocked if no one else has.

Similarly, as Serpent said, she's studied both Italian and German, and is a native Russian speaker - and comes to the same conclusion from that perspective.

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Γρηγόρη
Tetraglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 3363 days ago

55 posts - 154 votes 
Speaks: English*, Greek, Latin, Ancient Greek
Studies: German, French, Russian

 
 Message 15 of 24
30 May 2013 at 5:45pm | IP Logged 
Most of Russia's Latinate imports come via French, since the Russian nobility once spoke French amongst
themselves. German has many more words culled directly from Latin, since Latin was so integral to the educational
system until the 20th century. That being said, German also has many Gallicisms borrowed from its next door
neighbor. I would think, however, that the Latinate vocabulary in German would be more transparent to an Italian
speaker.
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Chung
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 Message 16 of 24
30 May 2013 at 5:55pm | IP Logged 
If anyone is truly into this, I'd suggest a rough or imperfect starting point would be to look at Swadesh lists.

P.S. Another way to get a very rough idea is to count the items that I found on the IDS project and checking off boxes for German, Italian and Russian under "Advanced Browsing" on the left.

Edited by Chung on 30 May 2013 at 5:59pm



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