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Lyricstraining

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iguanamon
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Virgin Islands
Speaks: Ladino
Joined 3157 days ago

2224 posts - 6706 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole

 
 Message 17 of 32
28 March 2014 at 2:34am | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
...But music is one of the best ways for beginners to start using native materials. Small victories are important. Procrastination in L2 is important. And if LyricsTraining is what you need to keep going, by all means use it. (I know this last argument applies to Rosetta Stone too, but LyricsTraining provides authentic content and helps you remember it, whereas RS is just the world's most expensive flashcard software) To quote Khatzumoto, sugar-coat your learning as much as needed....


No one is suggesting making lyricstraining the linchpin and major focus of one's studies, but if it can nudge a learner into working with genuine material that isn't created to artificially condescend to a learner, that's a good thing. It can be a confidence builder and motivation for a learner who, after filling in words in the lyrics" can look back and say: "I did that!"; "That was a song that any native speaker can understand, and I, a mere learner, figured it out!".

Yeah, the whole "game" aspect of it is unnecessary in my opinion, but if that helps inspire someone to go beyond the course book and Anki and start interacting with a language where it lives and breathes, that's important in my opinion.

Obviously, our "precious time" is limited, but the site is not intended as an alternative to courses. It's about nudging people out of their comfort zone by introducing native material and listening at native speed. If it's fun and a learner wants to spend 15 or 20 minutes working with a song in a foreign language once a week or a month, what's wrong with that? Lyricstraining is not a substitute for Assimil, FSI or Teach Yourself- but it could be a fun stepping stone to native material alongside a course. Making connections for one's self on one's own as a learner, learning to listen to native speed language and opportunities for synergy, all without the course's hand-holding, is not a waste of time- in my opinion.





Edited by iguanamon on 28 March 2014 at 2:42am

3 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 4492 days ago

9757 posts - 15776 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 18 of 32
28 March 2014 at 3:10am | IP Logged 
Here's the context of the original post, btw.

iguanamon, great post! Yeah, gamification is "a thing" now. I know I've definitely started using the site less now that the totals are gone. Or well, it's a combination of that and my Spanish/Italian both improving beyond the site's competence.

Instead of "along with courses" I would say "along with other methods", though ;) Such as also LR, Benny-style techniques or Ilya Frank's method. Add SRS, GLOSS and French in action/Destinos/etc, and you'll need very little grammar study.

And yeah, I giggle at the thought of "lyric straining" when I type it sometimes. Although apart from the expert mode, the site is very much stress-free, and having the synced lyrics actively relieves the default stress associated with L2 music.

Edited by Serpent on 28 March 2014 at 3:19am

1 person has voted this message useful



lingoleng
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 3193 days ago

605 posts - 1290 votes 

 
 Message 19 of 32
28 March 2014 at 4:31pm | IP Logged 
What are the main activities of our youngsters? Bad pod music, bad tv and useless computer games. Does another such activity really need this more than massive, endless, hyper-enthusiastic backing it gets here, by some members?
Using a search engine to find almost any lyrics is in most cases just a matter of seconds. Printing it out a matter of some more seconds. And there you are, do not depend on some random game site and can learn how to be the master of your own studying, instead of relying on other people doing the work for you. But in the context of the famous Katz soandso it seems to be a great thing, how else could one explain this euphoria for just another site ... gamification, stupidification, many cations going on there, imho. No surprise that people never know what to read, what to listen to, what to watch, what to do at all, they are trained and conditioned to be dependent.

Edited by lingoleng on 28 March 2014 at 4:37pm

2 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 4492 days ago

9757 posts - 15776 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 20 of 32
28 March 2014 at 4:54pm | IP Logged 
Yes, it does need the backing, because learners tend to have masochistic tendencies, to think that good, proper learning should be hard and painful and stressful. People have fun in their native language when they are tired of studying. What can be worse than having fun in your native language? I don't think I need to tell you that doing these "horrible" things in English is exactly how people learn it in the Nordic countries and in the Netherlands.

It's not about finding the lyrics of a song you already know. It's about finding a good song and turning it into an exercise. It's about getting the lyrics in a very learner-friendly format - seeing 5 lines at a time (and not just the current one), having the line highlighted, and nowadays also getting each word highlighted, though this new feature can be inaccurate sometimes. It's about staying focused on the song as you listen.

And yes, I mention this site a lot. Not because I won't calm down until every single member starts using it, but because we constantly get questions from new users who've never heard of it. Because even active members might not know it, especially if they only read posts and logs about specific languages. See how many people didn't notice the irony in your original post.

To me lyricstraining is also a specific kind of making my own exercises, instead of getting bored with useless texts not relevant to my life and interests. How is that not being a master of your own studying?

Edited by Serpent on 28 March 2014 at 5:08pm

5 persons have voted this message useful



lingoleng
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 3193 days ago

605 posts - 1290 votes 

 
 Message 21 of 32
28 March 2014 at 5:43pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
I don't think I need to tell you that doing these "horrible" things in English is exactly how people learn it in the Nordic countries and in the Netherlands.

I'll believe that when Dutch and Scandinavian schools no longer teach English, cause everybody already knows it. Till then it's just another myth.
My last words here, and then I'll finally leave you, and everybody else (what a relief) to your pedagogic mission: Of course people have never heard of lyricstraining. Nobody needs it. The internet is full of (pop-) music. May be number two after sex, don't know exactly.
And a very general comment, not directly addressing anybody: From my day 1 here I tried to keep the rate of my posts low. Because I wanted to help, a little bit teach, but what I am not is a missionary man. These annoy me, no matter what religion or ideology. Now I do understand that some people make it their personal pride to be so frequently present that people begin to identify them with the site. Some people do this without being experts for languages at all, just because they are arrogant, others do it although they are experts, but they go much too far and make it almost impossible for others to coexist with them, because no matter where you go, the hedgehog is already there. And he will be there again, and again, and again ... This stubborn high frequency repetition is a nice strategy for personal success and satisfaction, but I am deeply convinced that it is detrimental to the whole. It keeps away competent people, and will do so in the future, all it achieves is a lower level in general, a place where some few dominate by force of pure willpower.   I call it the terrorism of Lingsoc, supported by the arrogant network of the usual suspects. The opposite of a free place.

As this is my final post (as long as things are as they are, and I see no chance that they will change), it won't be necessary to ban the writer, who still has a final pending question to answer, somewhere in some thread, and then so long, and thanks for all the fish.

Edited by lingoleng on 28 March 2014 at 9:16pm

1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 4492 days ago

9757 posts - 15776 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 22 of 32
28 March 2014 at 6:04pm | IP Logged 
Wow, we do have something in common. I also don't like pop music, and I don't like how language-specific resources tend to focus on it. That's another advantage of lyricstraining. The old version of the site allowed you to tick genre boxes. It's not been added to the new one yet, but the data is still there, and if you search for the genre name (written in English), you can find rock and metal and whatnot. Uploading a song to lyricstraining is hard work and doesn't give you any free cookies, so unlike youtube where people can dump their whole collections, lyricstraining only gets the songs one is truly passionate about. It's a very high quality collection of songs and a great starting point for discovering L2 music.

As for teaching, well, schools also teach us our native language although we speak it already. Tarvos has also mentioned how the current tendency is bilingual education, ie actually teaching non-language classes in English. Not to mention that English is taught at school in most countries, yet those who don't have exposure outside school don't tend to learn much.

Edited by Serpent on 28 March 2014 at 6:05pm

2 persons have voted this message useful



montmorency
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 2723 days ago

2371 posts - 3675 votes 
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Danish, Welsh

 
 Message 23 of 32
28 March 2014 at 8:36pm | IP Logged 
lingoleng wrote:
Serpent wrote:
I don't think I need to tell you that doing these
"horrible" things in English is exactly how people learn it in the Nordic countries and
in the Netherlands.

I'll believe that when Dutch and Scandinavian schools no longer teach English, cause
everybody already knows it. Till then it's just another myth.
My last words here, and then I'll finally leave you, and everybody else (what a relief)
to your pedagogic mission: Of course people have never heard of lyricstraining. Nobody
needs it. The internet is full of (pop-) music. May be number two after sex, don't know
exactly.
And a very general comment, not directly addressing anybody: From my day 1 here I tried
to keep the rate of my postings low. Because I wanted to help, a little bit teach, but
what I am not is a missionary man. These annoy me, no matter what religion or ideology.
Now I do understand that some people make it their personal pride to be so frequently
present that people begin to identify them with the site. Some people do this without
being experts for languages at all, just because they are arrogant, others do it
although they are experts, but they go much too far and make it almost impossible for
others to coexist with them, because no matter where you go, the hedgehog is already
there. And he will be there again, and again, and again ... This stubborn high
frequency repetition is a nice strategy for personal success and satisfaction, but I am
deeply convinced that it is detrimental to the whole. It keeps away competent people,
and will do so in the future, all it achieves is a lower level in general, a place
where some few dominate by force of pure willpower.   I call it the terrorism of
Lingsoc, supported by the arrogant network of the usual suspects. The opposite of a
free place.

As this is my final post (as long as things are as they are, and I see no chance that
they will change), it won't be necessary to ban the writer, who still has a final
pending question to answer, somewhere in some thread, and then so long, and thanks for
all the fish.



Interesting, and sad - interesting because I almost "resigned" from HTLAL quite
recently, but calmed down, especially after the private intervention of a kind person.
HTLAL can be an annoying place, and I've been guilty of that myself sometimes in
careless moments.

I was genuinely puzzled by your apparent volte face on Lyricstraining, but you have
explained, and now I understand. For myself, I have no interest in the "game" aspect,
but before I tried it, I also had no interest in "cloze deletion" type exercises, but
when it's wrapped up with a catchy tune and a funny song by an attractive band who can
actually sing ("Die PRinzen" happened to be the first I tried), I was kind of hooked,
not that it's somewhere I'll be spending undue time.

So, I hope you'll maybe change your mind about HTLAL at some point, as I did, since
I'll miss your posts.
2 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 4492 days ago

9757 posts - 15776 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 24 of 32
27 October 2014 at 9:34pm | IP Logged 
Jeffers in another thread wrote:
Serpent wrote:
If you like gamified learning, try www.lyricstraining.com :) But note that you can't learn to listen solely through music.


Like you I used to recommend lyricstraining a lot, because I'd used it a couple times and thought it was pretty good. But when I tried to use it regularly I just found it frustrating and annoying. I'd rather just listen to music while reading the lyrics.

I'm curious, how often do you use lyricstraining, Serpent? You are probably their biggest supporter on HTLAL! :)


Not much anymore, actually. In the 6 week challenges my record was about 13 hours. But that was more or less when I first discovered the site. I found all the awesome songs out there and learned them. As long as they kept the total stats for registered users, I kept coming back every now and then, to play at a harder level or something. I've not been doing that since the new version came out, though I still check out the newly added songs occasionally.

Although I've found something I love in all my languages, Spanish is the king, as always :-) In European Portuguese and Dutch I basically mastered the 2-3 songs I loved and I keep checking. I also uploaded several Portuguese songs myself.

I mostly recommend the site for the following purposes:
-learning the basics of the pronunciation/spelling (although the site doesn't require diacritics)
-paying attention to details
-getting started with native materials
-discovering music in your L2

Of course it can also be used for learning the vocabulary and grammar. But I can see how, if you also use the more formal tools for that, it can make the use of music less fun. It does seem that for some learners a clear divide between "learning" and "fun" is helpful and productive (see this thread).

Nothing is for everyone. But I explained throughout this thread why I love lyricstraining :)


2 persons have voted this message useful



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