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Declined nouns | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5386 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes  | Message 25 of 33 28 June 2013 at 2:14am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I thought, yes, you can! The man I saw yesterday crossing the street's behavoiour was outragious, where the 's makes the whole phrase "The man ... street" a possessive, is a valid sentence in English, isn't it? Edited by Cabaire on 28 June 2013 at 2:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4494 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 26 of 33 28 June 2013 at 9:58am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yeah to me that is a possessive suffix, but we do have the 's in some circumstances, especially place and proper names. (Peter's boek, Jan's boek). However for you the -s is the productive construction, whereas for us it's only for people and animals, else a construction with "van" is preferred. Edited by tarvos on 28 June 2013 at 10:01am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6490 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 27 of 33 28 June 2013 at 1:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Well, I would call it a borderline case. But you are right, in English it is actually allowed to attach a genitival -s to a whole phrase. For instance I would (as a non-native speaker) accept it in for instance "Peter, Paul and Mary's old songs". However I have also learnt to prefer "of" with dead or abstract entities, but I see examples like "Situated in the south-central part of North West England, Manchester is England's third biggest city" all the time, so who(m) should I believe? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4615 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 28 of 33 28 June 2013 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Iversen, To me, that 's in your Manchester sentence doesn't apply to a phrase, but simply the word Manchester, so it's just a perfectly normal sentence, although I think some people wouldn't like that long dangling phrase, but that's probably a style issue more than anything. But I would not like to write Cabaire's sentence, although I might say it in conversation. There are some odd situations where I have to stop and think. If I want to talk about a house where I live with my wife, I might start to say (or to think) "My wife and I....", but of course I can't say "I's"...it's just that politeness normally forces us into phrases like "my wife and I" (instead of "me and my wife", but then I stop and realise it's: "My wife's and my house...". (just possibly: "My wife and my house..." but that just sounds wrong to me, if I have time to think about it). But if I lived in a ghastly menage a quatre with Peter, Paul, and Mary, I might start to say "Peter, Paul, Mary and my house...", but that wouldn't sound quite right so should it be: "Peter's, Paul's, Mary's and my house...", but that would sound horrible, so I would probably compromise on "Peter, Paul, Mary's and my house", and that's really the same as your P,P,M example I think. I'd have to look at each case individually I think (because I don't really know any rule), but in writing, generally if you find yourself applying 's to a very long phrase, it could probably be better written another way. A bit like George Orwell and his so-called "rules", ignore all the above if by following them, the result would be something barbaric. EDIT: Oops - I meant that the apostrophe-s applies to the word "England" (and not to the rest of the phrase), Sorry for the confusion. Edited by montmorency on 29 June 2013 at 3:17pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4615 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 29 of 33 28 June 2013 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
hm....again, I can't give a rule, but some things and entities could take apostrophe- s.... ...the car's headlight ...the government's predicament... ...while others might sound odd: "....the window of the house..." rather than "the house's window". ".....the crux of the matter.." rather than "...the matter's crux" (but that's a set phrase or cliché). Phrases, I am much less sure about (see other post), at least in the formal written language. [the danger faced in modern written English is the spurious apostrophe-s (where no possessive/genitive is intended) - I almost did it myself somewhere above, but corrected it - and I see it all the time now, even from "educated" sources. Perhaps in a few years' time, such usage will be deemed "correct"]. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4631 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 30 of 33 28 June 2013 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
There are some remnants of an instrumental case in Old English as well. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4843 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 31 of 33 28 June 2013 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Personal pronouns had it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5619 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 32 of 33 28 June 2013 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
this sentence doesn't sound right to me. Very cumbersome. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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