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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3913 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes  Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 9 of 46 31 August 2013 at 11:23pm | IP Logged | ||
Hi Erenko! I was not familiar with the latter. I read the first page about it and from how I understand it, it seems like something great to look forward to. The undertaking seems very ambitious and I really hope it succeeds! I am curious to see how it turns out so I have of course signed up for the beta. I had a couple of reactions of my own to what I read about it, that I will share here. - The first one was obviously how many people and time will it take to make translations and record all audio books and then sync them with the text? (I am at least not aware of any good technology that will help you to automatize the syncing to a satisfying level) - What content will they offer and will I find it interesting? - Will it be easy to handle all copyrights so that we can get fresh content? Now I do not want to be pessimistic here, but these were questions that I asked myself upon reading about the project. I really hope the project succeeds because the approach is in my mind the most efficient way to learning languages and there should be more software making things easier for learners of this approach. As for my own experience with developing my own app for language learning, I came from a bit different angle. I never felt it too difficult to find what text an audio in L2 corresponded to nor to sync my two texts between each other (so that I would need a truly parallel text). But of course I am studying French and not Chinese. I am also very big on not "studying" but learning as naturally as possible and I, talking for myself, find the most natural way to be the one where I can focus on personally interesting content. Now of course different people find different content interesting. This was part the reason that I for example did not choose to provide the user of my app with content of my choice. Instead I made the app so that the user can be the one to bring content of his choice to the app. Of course for some languages it might be harder to find interesting content than for others, but I do not think that it is impossible. The other reason why I choose not to provide content with my app was because of the issue of having to deal with all copyright related stuff. This was beyond the scope of what I wanted to do. In fact I did not have any big plans on releasing the app but people around me wanted to try it out. If you are really interested in find out more about the app, go to: www.thelawofidentity.com/capish (I don't know why I cannot post links the right way...) Again thanks for sharing the two links here, I hope to be able to try out Toriyama's beta soon. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3913 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 10 of 46 31 August 2013 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | ||
Hi Iguanamon! No hard feelings! Thank you for the kind words! Although I like discussion I got a bit tired of that thread too and I agree with you that this might be a better way to express myself. As for learning Swedish at an early age, I would have to admit that it did not at all spark my present interest in language learning. But I think it did help with the confidence that I know that I can do it. It also helped me to some extent to arrive at my present approach to learning languages since I very well can remember the process I went through with Swedish. The same principles that I now consciously try to adhere to were at place then. Although now I understand them a lot better and I have them under my control. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3913 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 11 of 46 09 September 2013 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have been thinking about an interesting observation I have made when it comes to language learning. It is about the topic of input first vs output first. There is no doubt in my mind that input must come first, before output. I am right not focusing exclusively on input and comprehension when it comes to my pursuit of French. I have primarily a desire to be able to consume French content. Now the interesting observation is that when it comes to programming, which is my core interest, it turns out that all my learning within this domain has happened not nearly as much because I wanted to consume content but rather because I wanted to "output" something. So the question is: isn't this contradictory to my language learning approach. I have noted that it in fact isn't. When it comes to programming my approach is always based on some idea that I have and want to translate into a software. So as a beginner in a new programming language I lack a lot of the understanding that is needed to translate new ideas into the software that I want. This makes it impossible to just start out and develop the particular software I have in mind. So what I always do is first to break up the big software idea into smaller problems which I can focus on one by one. Then I pick one of these small problems and try to implement a "solution". This is often impossible if I am completely new to a computer language or library. So the natural thing I do then is to go on the Internet and search for how I can implement a small piece of the "solution". This can be things like: How do I put a button on the middle of the screen in this language and/or library. I continue doing this for every part of my project that I lack knowledge. Soon enough the project is finished and I have learned something from all this contextual "looking up". Here it is evident that even though my primary focus is on the output when it comes to programming languages, I have to get the required input before I am able to "output" it.
I am sure that language learners that stand for the "output first" approach are in fact adopting the same approach I am adopting when it comes to programming languages. I also think that a lot of these people are language learners that primarily want to speak i.e. output, as opposed to primarily wanting to consume content in their target language. Now of course I want to speak French but my primary focus is the consumption of French content. This is all fine and good, but all of us have to get that input first. Another interesting observation I have made here is that both of the approaches I describe here are natural. What I mean by this is that both approaches ensure context. For example when learning a programming language, I do never pick up an entire book on the language and read it from front to back, what I do instead is start with a very specific idea and then only look up the things I need in the book in order to express this idea. The focus is on the expression of the idea. So one can say: I am not learning the programming language, I am expressing my idea (the by-product of expressing my idea is that I indeed learn the language). When it comes to my learning of French, I am solely focused on the content of the book that I read. I am not focused on learning French but on using French to understand what the author of the book is saying. Both these are contextual. Now the interesting implicit principles, behind both these approaches, which I hold and which should be evident by now is that: "Knowledge in itself is useless". Knowledge is only any good when it is applied. So are languages. Edited by JC_Identity on 09 September 2013 at 12:06pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3913 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 12 of 46 15 September 2013 at 6:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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I just watched the latest interview with Emanuele Marini on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7JnakZ-3j4
I have listened to the earlier interview that Luca did with him, but I think this interview was more valuable for language learners. In this interview Emanuele went into more detail about his approach and the most important thing that Emanuele mentioned I think was his stress on the fact that whatever he is learning, he is using it. It seems that Emanuele thinks that context when learning is essential. He even mentions the fact that too many people studying for an exam quickly forget what they have learned. Another interesting thing about Emanuele's approach to language learning, which differs from mine, is that his language learning approach is the exact same approach that I use toward learning programming languages. I mentioned my approach to programming languages in the last entry. Emanuele seems much more focused on the output in language learning just like me when approaching programming languages. He learns in order to communicate something specific. This he says ensures that he remembers everything that he learns much better. I think that this specific aspect was very interesting to hear from probably that most accomplished polyglot out there today. Context is really KING no matter if input or output is your end. And of course input comes before output, so when Emanuele wants to write and say something specific he makes sure that he has quick access to a dictionary. Very interesting indeed. I recommend people to watch the interview if you have not already. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3913 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 13 of 46 18 October 2013 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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Some days ago a friend of mine who has been reading Tim Ferriss's "The 4-Hour Chef" (I believe) called me and told me that he thinks that Ferriss has some good advice on how one could learn a language fast. I knew what the would say since I had read about Ferriss's language learning approach before and I am not a fan of it. Nevertheless I thanked my friend for having made the call because it got me thinking about why exactly I do not like Ferriss's approach and this knowledge helped strengthening my own.
Tim Ferriss's is an advocate of flash cards and he advocates the 80-20 Pareto principle to learning languages, as he does to a lot of other areas. This means that one should start out by learning a certain number of the most frequently used words by using flash cards for these words. Ferriss also advocates using a certain number of sentences to deconstruct the grammar of the target language. - So why do I not like this. What is wrong with it? The reason why I do not like this is not apparent on the surface level or technique level but rather I am opposed to the root behind Ferriss's approach. Ferriss's focus is on studying the target language. The target language in his approach is the END. To me languages are MEANS. My primary focus is the content that knowing the language opens up to me. I could also put it as: I am not concerned with learning French but with understanding a certain type of content that interests me that is written/spoken in French. Learning French is a by-product of consuming this content (which is possible to a large extent today even for complete beginners!). Then yesterday I was watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsEn_12llE4 Where language students are asking Benny Lewis questions on language learning. And what struck me was how prevalent and vicious the language-as-an-end approach really is. It is at root an out-of-context approach. If you watch the video you will notice at least one guy that wants help from Benny to figure out how to learn new words and what words to learn. To people that primarily treat languages as means this would be laughable since the language-as-a-means approach ensures context, it is at root a contextual approach since the focus is on certain content you want to understand. When you have personally interesting content that you want to understand, you would never ask what words do I need to know. In the Benny Lewis video there is also a guy who asks Benny how he keeps up the motivation to studying a language and how he keeps it fun. I do not know how this guy approaches language learning but I know that I would have posed this same question if I treated languages as ends. The study of a language is boring to most people (if you are not a linguist). The study of words on flash cards and grammar exercises are completely empty. Besides you do not learn to use a language language by studying it, you learn to use a language by using it for its purpose and learning inductively. And I believe that most language learners want to be able to use a language rather than to possess knowledge of its structure as a linguist. At least to me knowledge is only useful when used, it is meaningless otherwise. If you approach language learning by treating languages as means you ensure context which will help you retain better what you learn as you are able make more connections and integrate everything that you learn. Luca has a very good explanation of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3zlRM6oFvI You will also have more fun by treating the language as a means since you will focus on what interests you, the personally interesting content. You will never have to ask anyone what words you have to learn or how to keep it fun, and you will be using the knowledge that you acquire without any delayed gratification. I think this issue of threating languages as ends vs means is perhaps the most important issue that needs attention today within the language learning community. I do not think that many people are aware of the nature of the issue yet alone of the consequences that follow from having chosen a side. It is also important to remember that all language learners, even those that are unaware of this issue, have chosen one of the sides every time they engage in language learning activities. They have done so either implicitly or explicitly. What I think is important is to make learners aware of the nature of each of the approaches and get the number of learners that have made the choice explicitly much higher. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3913 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 14 of 46 19 October 2013 at 12:54am | IP Logged | ||
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I was just reading an article on song writing in French: FRENCH
ARTICLE and I thought it might be one good example of how I naturally bring French into my life, of course at all times being primarily focused on the content and not the language itself. I have an interest for song writing and music which I think is still one of the most undiscovered and "unmapped" fields. So I am very fascinated with the field and like to read on the topic from time to time. So why not do it in French? Although I prefer to have audio when consuming French content since my primary aim is listening comprehension, I do not think it is necessarily wrong to just read from time to time. This is precisely what you could do when you want to expand the extent of content that you can consume in your target language. Now it might be hard to begin just reading French if you are a beginner. But there are really some amazing tools out there that are of great help. I am very impatient when it comes to having to look up words and it must be very quick if I am to be using the tool (which is also a major reason why I developed my own iPad app for enabling me to read "real" books in other languages as a complete beginner). Now what I do when reading French content on Internet is to use an extension to Chrome called "Instant Translate" which translates a selected word or group of words when you press a certain key on your keyboard. I think it is very good and quick enough for me to have a pleasurable experience when reading. I am also at a level now in French where I do not need a complete translation of the whole text but only need to look up words here and there. But even if I was to be a complete beginner in French I think this approach would be very good. Okay, it is certainly slower than reading English but it brings with it another joyful aspect, that of solving a crossword puzzle, as Kato Lomb would have loved. Now is it really any better or more fun than studying flash cards or doing grammar exercises? I will tell you this, the time I spent to read through that article the last thing on my mind was to look at the clock which would have been the first thing on my mind if doing vocabulary drills. I was in a flow experience totally interested to find out what the author was saying about his thoughts on song writing and writing lyrics. I also had a great deal of fun from the crossword aspect as I mentioned, which for me makes up for the reading speed. Could I be doing this for 1 hour, 8 hours, a whole day? I could easily! It is pleasurable for me, there is no strain, I could do it in English, why not in French? especially with today's technology. So this pretty much solves the motivation problem that so many language-as-an-end approaches have (see my last post for more on what I mean by a language-as-an-end approach). Now is this really efficient, what about retention? This approach is contextual, you are consuming real content and all bits that you learn fit into a bigger picture, to which they are integrated. A context ensures a set of connections to which you can tie each bit, like a word into a sentence and a sentence into a paragraph and to everything else that is relevant that you know. And our brain and memory faculty functions by making connections, knowledge is truly a sum or whole. I hold that understanding happens when you find a way to fit a new bit into this whole. And the more bits you integrate into your knowledge the more possible ties there are when new bits present themselves, so this approach works exponentially. This is why rote memorization might appear more efficient sometimes on the surface and why it actually isn't. The other aspect here is the fact that you are learning how words really are used and not in isolation. The last aspect is what Kato Lomb would put: "what we can remember is what we have figured out ourselves". This ties back to how I see a moment of understanding occurring. Now it should also be said that my whole approach is natural, so this means that I never bother to reread what I have read before if I would not do it naturally, had I lets say read the same content in English for example. I also do not bother to insist on making sure that I retain a word that I have looked up. I might forget it directly after I have looked it up and got the meaning of the sentence or paragraph, other times it just sticks and I never have to look it up again. Here I think Kato Lomb also gave some valid advice along these lines: if the word is important, it will occur again. So I never force myself to remember a word. Remember I am there primarily for the meaning of the content. The whole process is completely natural as if I were reading something in English. Since I am an Aristotlean in soul I thought that it would be necessary to bring up a concrete example in relation to which I can explain my approach and how it applies to reality. Edited by JC_Identity on 19 October 2013 at 2:57am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4457 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 15 of 46 19 October 2013 at 1:06am | IP Logged | ||
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I get what you mean about seeing languages as means rather than ends. "Using" my French, to meet new people, to read books and watch movies and listen to the radio, is so much more enjoyable than the "learning" part was -- not that I've finished learning by any stretch, but I don't do purely "language learning-oriented" activities in it anymore, if that makes sense.
It seems like for some people the beginner stage has a special energy and magic to it, and their motivation flags somewhere in the intermediate stage. But personally, that's right when my motivation picks up! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3913 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 16 of 46 19 October 2013 at 2:37am | IP Logged | ||
Interesting! I agree the more you know the more fun it gets. Thanks for sharing! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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