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Ostfriesisch accent in German | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| ByzantineDragon Triglot Newbie Netherlands Joined 4242 days ago 23 posts - 30 votes Speaks: English, Dutch*, Esperanto Studies: German | Message 9 of 14 10 September 2013 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yeah, and West Lauwers Frisian (spoken in the Netherlands) is dying as well. Only 17%
can write it in the province and less than half of the children learn it. If the language is to be saved the first thing that should happen is increase the amount of Frisian taught in schools (All schools in Friesland except for 2 regions and a couple of exceptions must teach Frisian) from 0,75 hour a week to at least 2 or 3 hours a week. But not many people feel the need to teach it more. It's a bit depressing seeing a language die before your eyes. Especially if it's your own. Edited by ByzantineDragon on 10 September 2013 at 3:49pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 10 of 14 10 September 2013 at 11:18pm | IP Logged | ||
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Not meaning to hijack the thread, but can people confirm that north German Platt and
Frisian (East or otherwise) are not really related at all? That is my impression, although I think some people (not in HTLAL) sometimes confuse them. My assumption is that Platt is somewhere in the dialect spectrum between the Dutch and northern German dialects, whereas Frisian is much more distinctly different. By the way, I thought there had been an active Frisian revival project in East Friesland, but it sounds like it hasn't been too successful. :-( 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| ByzantineDragon Triglot Newbie Netherlands Joined 4242 days ago 23 posts - 30 votes Speaks: English, Dutch*, Esperanto Studies: German | Message 11 of 14 10 September 2013 at 11:23pm | IP Logged | ||
Yes correct. Frisian has 3 languages: West Lauwers Frisian in the Netherlands and Sater Frisian and North Frisian in Germany. In the North-West of Germany they also speak a German dialect called Eastern Frisian (German Platt) which is a German dialect and not Frisian. Since I have a bit of a mix of Gronings/Drents (Related to German plat) and West Lauwers Frisian I'm looking for information about the phonology of Sater Frisian and German Platt. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4843 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 12 of 14 11 September 2013 at 11:16am | IP Logged | ||
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Yeah, the ancestor of the modern Frisian languages is Old Frisian, while the ancestor of Platt is Old Saxon. Modern Standard German, however, is derived from Old High German, so those are in fact three different languages and not just dialectal variations.
2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 13 of 14 11 September 2013 at 11:19am | IP Logged | ||
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The Northeastern dialects of the Netherlands are of Low Saxon heritage though, it just
has a Frisian substratum because of the proximity of dear old Frisia. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 14 of 14 11 September 2013 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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As Josquin writes "the ancestor of the modern Frisian languages is Old Frisian, while the ancestor of Platt is Old Saxon. Modern Standard German, however, is derived from Old High German,(.)". And you can add that High German split out from the Frisian and Saxon branches with the 'Second consonant shift' somewhere between the 3rd and 5th centuries AD, whereas it is less clear when the socalled Ingwäonic languages separated into the forerunners of Frisian/English, Saxon/Low German and maybe some Jutish dialects. However around the 8.-9. century we have text samples that show that by then they had separated.
However when we write about languages that branch out and never rejoin we only consider the sound changes, which are the basis for traditional historical linguistics. But as anyone can hear from the modern languages, one subbranch may develop into something quite different from the origin in a short time, while others remain close to the common ancestor. And then it may be that two languages from different branches seem more alike than two languages from one of the branches. An outside influence may move a language in the direction of a language from a third branch, sometimes to a degree where people start to believe it just is a dialect of that irrelevant outsider language. This is precisely the case with Frisian and Platt: they look like siblings, but are cousins, and the real sibling of Frisian - English - has fled home and become a half Latinized runaway located somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean. And to the other side, the gap between hardcore Platt and High German has been filled out by 'soft' Half-German versions of Platt (just as the space between hardcore Scots and English has occupied by English pronounced as Scots). Edited by Iversen on 11 September 2013 at 3:27pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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