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Processable and non-processable materials | ||
Tags: Time to learn | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 4964 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes  Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 1 of 4 12 October 2013 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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The discussion on the importance of native materials is a recurrent topic at the forum,
but how much can you take on a day? I believe the answer to this depends largely on how much you can understand, and thus enjoy, from the resource you are using. So far, I had been using mostly 'processable' resources - that is, books and films I either got a bilingual text for comparing or got subtitles I could translate. Then this week I finished watching a Georgian film with English subtitles and started watching a TV series with no subtitles. I used to watch 10 min of the film with subtitles, then I started the TV series with 35 min' episodes and no subtitles. As a result, I had both Thursday and Friday with burnout. Trying to follow a story - which seemed interesting - during 30 min and not being able to was painful. I have the following activities that are 'unprocessable' or 'hard to process': The Russian texts at my textbook - they have no translation, and I still have to look up 3 words a sentence. I have to type them out because the book is either paperback or non-OCRed. The glossary is on the next page, so flipping back and forth might take longer than just typing what I see. The Georgian texts at my online course - I do have a translation, but I still have to look up individual words to make sense of them. The Georgian series - mentioned above. I can't understand more than 10% of it. The Chinese lessons from NPCR 2 - I may understand about 70% with characters, but there's no pinyin for the dialogues. Then there is the written text, too. The Chinese cartoon - Chinese subtitles only. I may now be understanding 40% from it, sometimes 60% and it is fun, but it is my last video in the day and the total amount of unprocessable resources does count. So, I'd like to hear opinions on how you guys handle with this. Several people have advised me that just immersion will take you to comprehension, after, let's say, hundreds of hours. Yet I find the process of going through the immersion and not understanding 50% of it painfully. Now I believe I should keep this to a minimal, even if this means to sacrifice my Georgian a bit more by watching, maybe, only 10 min of a 35-min episode each day. I really prefer translations and I learn a lot from them, after all, that's also the spirit of L/R, but sometimes there's not much to do, especially for less-commonly learned languages. As a final note, I posted this at this subforum because I'm not just seeking for advice, I'm exposing one concept I thought of, two strategies I've faced and I'm willing to elaborate on it. Mods feel free to move it, though. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5330 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 4 12 October 2013 at 8:21pm | IP Logged | ||
When I first started watching French TV, I could only watch about an hour before desperately needing a nap right away. And I was already at a pretty decent level—I could understand one-on-one conversation without too much trouble. I've seen similar problems with heavy reading and with real-life immersion. My brain suddenly flips into "power saving" mode, and remaining awake is incredibly hard. So when I can, I just go to sleep. But at least for me, this is usually a short-term problem. After a week or so, my brain adjusts to the new activity and I can do a lot more without crashing. As for difficulty, my rule of thumb is that I have to be having fun. For me personally, this means I need at least 40% comprehension, but usually more like 70%. And I think a lot of people find even these levels unbearable. Krashen says he has observed students who need something more like 95% to 98% comprehension, because they just can't deal with not understanding stuff. And Khatzumoto (the AJATT blogger) seems to be at the other extreme—he can just watch the pretty pictures and try to puzzle out a phrase here or there. There's also the issue of comprehensible input. Once my comprehension drops below a certain level, I no longer get enough contextual clues to figure out the unknown material. I suspect that this "immersion fatigue" is actually a good thing, at least in small amounts. It seems to be a sign that my brain is working overtime to learn French. But if it stops being fun, I back off and take it easy. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4626 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 3 of 4 12 October 2013 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | ||
I think that what you have highlighted in your 2nd paragraph is very important. Immersion without much comprehension probably does have a value, but it may be impossible to quantify. Another aspect is switching between languages. At one time, I would not have had the confidence to do this. I was rather a "one language at a time" person. But I've gradually managed to change this, and can happily switch between three, at any rate, and I think 3 X 1 hour with each, is better than 3 hours with any one. At one time, I would have not thought so, or even attempted it. If I understand you correctly, that is more or less what you are doing (i.e. switching between several languages, each day, presumably)). 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 4964 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 4 of 4 14 October 2013 at 7:27pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think 70% is an appropriate ratio, emk, though it is hard to achieve for less common
languages. A friend of mine also mentioned the fun component, yet he started watching Persian when he couldn't understand anything. I'm a really skeptical about this initial immersion. I don't doubt it would bring up results but I doubt its efficiency when compared to making things smoother with subtitles and such. montmorency, you are right, I switch between languages back and forth all along the day. I usually do textbook study first then I get into native materials next, so I can take them with no pressure of having to advance in a book. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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