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Nynorsk: "doke" i staden for "dere/de" | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Skandinavisk & Nordisk |  | |
| Guido Super Polyglot Senior Member ArgentinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6308 days ago 286 posts - 582 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, French, English, German, Italian, Portuguese, Norwegian, Catalan, Dutch, Swedish, Danish Studies: Russian, Indonesian, Romanian, Polish, Icelandic | Message 1 of 26 26 October 2013 at 2:40am | IP Logged | ||
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Hei,
Eg har høyrt her at ein sier "doke" i staden for "dere/de" (minutt 2:32 og 2:55). Veit de kva slags dialekt kan det vere? Det låter kjæmpefin Takk! Guido. Edited by Guido on 26 October 2013 at 2:40am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6689 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 26 26 October 2013 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | ||
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Jag vet inte om det är typiskt nynorskt - jag hör det då och då.
Wikipedia säger följande (om Trøndersk): Some of the more conspicuous variations of these dialects of Norwegian, in addition to the aforementioned apocope and palatalization, are that most of the personal pronouns are pronounced differently than in Standard Norwegian, e.g. Trondheim dialect: 1st person singular nominative /ʔæː/, commonly rendered as "æ" (Standard Norwegian "eg" (Nynorsk) / "jeg" (Bokmål)), or 2nd person plural accusative /dɔkː/ or /dɔkːɛr/, commonly spelled "dokker" or "dåkker" (Standard Norwegian "dykk" (Nynorsk) / "dere" (Bokmål)). Variation among personal pronouns are common in most Norwegian dialects. Förhoppningsvis kan infödda bekräfta om det stämmer att 'dykk' är Nynorsk, och att 'dokker' helt enkelt är dialektalt. Edited by jeff_lindqvist on 26 October 2013 at 4:39pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6362 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 3 of 26 26 October 2013 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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Undrar om det är släkt med svenskans (dialektala) "tocke dret"? Google ger mig ett resultat på "tocke dret" och ett på "tokke dret", så det verkar inte så vanligt, men jag har hört det i de värmländska skogarna, och "dret/drit" är väl från norskan?
"Tocke dret" betyder alltså ungefär "så tråkigt" eller "vilket skit". 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5114 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 4 of 26 26 October 2013 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | ||
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I hear that pronoun used in lots of dialects, both in North, South and West, so it is fairly common in dialects,
but it is not used as part of Standard Nynorsk as far as I know. The first sentences were said in Northern dialect I think, but the second one sounded more from the West. I am however no specialist in dialects, so take this with a grain of salt or fourteen :-) Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 26 October 2013 at 6:08pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4448 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 5 of 26 26 October 2013 at 6:24pm | IP Logged | ||
Now one can find it, if one looks up DOKKER in the normative dictionary of Nynorsk (Nynorskboka): http://www.nob-ordbok.uio.no/perl/o rdbok.cgi?OPP=dokker&nynorsk=+&ordbok=bokmaal ''de pron.; el dokker pron. (utt de el. di; norr þér, ér og þit, it 'de (to)', dativ og akkusativ þykkr, ykkr 'dykk to', genitiv ykkar 'dykkar to') 2. person fleirtal, brukt som fleirtal av du i vanleg tiltale til fleire'' As for the dialect usage, dokker is used in Western, Central, and in Northern Norway. Even in Tromsø, people use dokker instead of dere, and it's also a feature of Bergen dialect (otherwise a Bokmaal-writing city). It was professors from University of Bergen themselves the ones who insisted dokker be accepted in written Nynorsk. The main ''points'' of the last year's Nynorsk spelling reform> 1) dokker gets in 2) -i feminine definite article goes out (before: sola or soli; now only: sola) 3) dialekt can be a feminine noun as well> before: ein dialekt, dialekten; now> ein dialekt or ei dialekt, dialekten or dialekta... I think the inclusion of DOKKER was good, since it's used in many dialects, and using DE in speech can confuse listeners (because DE means ''they'' in Standard Eastern Norwegian and Southeastern dialects). Nevertheless, I doubt high school L2 students of Nynorsk will use it, they use ''radical Nynorsk'' forms (those close to or shared with Bokmaal) and not ''Vestlandsk'' nynorsk (used by L1 users of Nynorsk): L2 Nynorsk: Vi liker dykk. / Vi skal kaste boka i elva. / De og vi / Vi liker barna dykkar / Vi ønsker L1 Nynorsk: Me likar dokker. / Me skal kasta boka i elva. / Dokker og me / Me likar borna dokkar / Me ynskjer With latest spelling reforms, moderate Bokmaal has got closer to Riksmaal (now forms like jenten, barnene, benene are officially correct, to the pleasure of those from Bergen), while Nynorsk (as used outside its core region) is practically a new radical Bokmaal. So, in the Oslo-produced media (NRK newscasts, newspapers)both languages moved toward Danish> Nynorsk: Me likar skulen ---> Vi liker skolen; (from Nynorsk toward (radical) Bokmaal) Bokmaal: Mora mi kasta boka i elva. ---> Moren min kastet boken i elven. (from radical Bokmaal toward Risksmaal/Danish). I guess the biggest ''loser'' is the radical Bokmaal. Moderate/conservative Nynorsk is still used/defended by its L1 users in Western Norway, even though NRK may use bokmaalsk Nynorsk (radical Nynorsk) in Oslo-made NRK subtitling and newscasts, as well in high school teaching of Nynorsk to L1 Bokmaal users in Southeastern Norway. Edited by Medulin on 26 October 2013 at 7:01pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| stifa Triglot Senior Member Norway lang-8.com/448715 Joined 4653 days ago 629 posts - 813 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, EnglishC2, German Studies: Japanese, Spanish | Message 6 of 26 26 October 2013 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | ||
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I say "dokk" and "dokker" in my (Trønder-)dialect.
It's pretty common in dialects, but I doubt you would use it when writing formal nynorsk. EDIT: jeff_lindqvist (jeg leser nicket hans alltid som jeff_linguist :p) har rett ang. trønderdialekten. "Dåke" er vanlig i vestlandsdialekter i Jæren-området og i deler av Hordaland. Han på videoen høres ut som han kommer fra et eller annet sted i Sunnhordland. Edited by stifa on 26 October 2013 at 7:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6689 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 7 of 26 26 October 2013 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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Slutsatser?
1 'dokker' är ett dialektalt pronomen som används på många håll i landet 2 man ska inte automatiskt tro att det är nynorsk bara för att man inte har hört ordet tidigare... Apropå tocken: Etymologi: Av fornsvenska þōlīkin (”dylik”) bildat ur þōlīker. Jämför þȳlīker (”dylik”). http://sv.wiktionary.org/wiki/tocken 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| stifa Triglot Senior Member Norway lang-8.com/448715 Joined 4653 days ago 629 posts - 813 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, EnglishC2, German Studies: Japanese, Spanish | Message 8 of 26 26 October 2013 at 9:18pm | IP Logged | ||
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@"Slutsats" nummer 2: Ordet "nynorsk" kan også bety "nynorsk dialekt", som er mer eller
mindre alle ikke-østnorske dialekter om jeg ikke tar feil :p /flisespikkeri 1 person has voted this message useful |
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