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Nynorsk: "doke" i staden for "dere/de"

  Tags: Norwegian | Dialect
 Language Learning Forum : Skandinavisk & Nordisk Post Reply
26 messages over 4 pages: 13 4  Next >>
Ari
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 Message 9 of 26
26 October 2013 at 10:03pm | IP Logged 
jeff_lindqvist wrote:
Apropå tocken:
Etymologi: Av fornsvenska þōlīkin (”dylik”) bildat ur þōlīker. Jämför þȳlīker (”dylik”).

Ah, så det var ett 'n' på slutet! Inte släkt, allstå? Nåväl. En tacker å bocker.
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Medulin
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 Message 10 of 26
26 October 2013 at 11:12pm | IP Logged 
Now Ordnett's dictionary lists it too:

dokker el de pron; obj: dykk el dokker; gen.: dokkar el dykkar (Nynorsk)
BOKMÅL dere

Nynorsk rettskrivingsordbok av Jon Bjones
( Rettskrivingsendringane frå 2012 er innarbeidde i ordlista. )


--
In Lexin:
Bokmål oppslagsord     dere /de:re/ pronomen
Nynorsk     de   &nb sp;  /de:/ pronomen
Nynorsk alternativ dokker


It's funny dokker means puppets too :(


Edited by Medulin on 26 October 2013 at 11:16pm

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Solfrid Cristin
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 Message 11 of 26
27 October 2013 at 1:49am | IP Logged 
stifa wrote:
@"Slutsats" nummer 2: Ordet "nynorsk" kan også bety "nynorsk dialekt", som er mer eller
mindre alle ikke-østnorske dialekter om jeg ikke tar feil :p

/flisespikkeri


Hmmm. Technically you should be right, but I would have to side with Jeff on this one. When we say
Nynorsk only that is generally understood as the written norm. We would say "dialects" or dialects
close to Nynorsk if we meant any spoken variant.

And if you say in Bergen that they speak a dialect of Nynorsk you risk losing one of your three legs.

Interesting that "dokker" has now been included in Nynorsk, but infinitely sad that the i-ending of nouns has
been excluded. My mom told me that families have been ripped apart by quarrels regarding that ending, and
those who lost the battle must be very sad.

I cannot help but persist in my idea that Nynorsk, Bokmål and Riksmål should be abolished, and be replaced
by Norwegian, where all past and current forms of words that exist in all three variants are permitted.

What today is taught in schools as Nynorsk is in any event a travesty. A huge part of the words that made
Nynorsk different and beautiful are corrected if you use them.

And even some of those who teach and speak Standard Eastern Norwegian are not capable of speaking it
correctly. We must be the only country in the world where a teacher of the national language can say the
equivalence of "Her has done it", or make 5 spelling errors on one single written page and get away with it.



Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 27 October 2013 at 1:51am

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montmorency
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 Message 12 of 26
27 October 2013 at 11:49am | IP Logged 
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
stifa wrote:
@"Slutsats" nummer 2: Ordet "nynorsk" kan også
bety "nynorsk dialekt", som er mer eller
mindre alle ikke-østnorske dialekter om jeg ikke tar feil :p

/flisespikkeri


Hmmm. Technically you should be right, but I would have to side with Jeff on this one.
When we say
Nynorsk only that is generally understood as the written norm. We would say "dialects"
or dialects
close to Nynorsk if we meant any spoken variant.

And if you say in Bergen that they speak a dialect of Nynorsk you risk losing one of
your three legs.

Interesting that "dokker" has now been included in Nynorsk, but infinitely sad that the
i-ending of nouns has
been excluded. My mom told me that families have been ripped apart by quarrels
regarding that ending, and
those who lost the battle must be very sad.

I cannot help but persist in my idea that Nynorsk, Bokmål and Riksmål should be
abolished, and be replaced
by Norwegian, where all past and current forms of words that exist in all three
variants are permitted.

What today is taught in schools as Nynorsk is in any event a travesty. A huge part of
the words that made
Nynorsk different and beautiful are corrected if you use them.

And even some of those who teach and speak Standard Eastern Norwegian are not capable
of speaking it
correctly. We must be the only country in the world where a teacher of the national
language can say the
equivalence of "Her has done it", or make 5 spelling errors on one single written page
and get away with it.




As an outsider I can be fairly neutral here (!) ( :-) ):

Your post seems eminently reasonably (as always) Cristina, but also seems to contain a
slight contradiction.

You seem to be arguing for a fairly laisser-faire policy on the one hand, and yet
criticising a teacher for not being correct enough on the other.

Presumably the teacher(s) in question believe that what they are teaching is correct,
so mustn't it actually be correct in whatever version of Norwegian they are used
to?

Anyway, your solution of allowing "all past and current forms of words that exist in
all three variants [to be]... permitted." would presumably end up making life even more
complicated for the person who wants to learn Norwegian as a second language.

(Edited: "confusing" -> "complicated")

Edited by montmorency on 27 October 2013 at 12:39pm

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jeff_lindqvist
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 Message 13 of 26
27 October 2013 at 1:40pm | IP Logged 
montmorency wrote:
Anyway, your solution of allowing "all past and current forms of words that exist in all three variants [to be]... permitted." would presumably end up making life even more complicated for the person who wants to learn Norwegian as a second language.


It's not that differences in usage/vocabulary/grammar/etc. has stopped anyone to learn English, Spanish, German, Chinese... Irish. Some people say "dere", others say "dokker"; some say "tap", others say "faucet" and so on. It's not the end of the world.
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Solfrid Cristin
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 Message 14 of 26
28 October 2013 at 2:04pm | IP Logged 
montmorency wrote:


Your post seems eminently reasonably (as always) Cristina, but also seems to contain a
slight contradiction.

You seem to be arguing for a fairly laisser-faire policy on the one hand, and yet
criticising a teacher for not being correct enough on the other.

Presumably the teacher(s) in question believe that what they are teaching is correct,
so mustn't it actually be correct in whatever version of Norwegian they are used
to?


Two different things.

In the written language I am trying to look for a democratic solution which includes everyone, and which actually makes some sense. I was however talking about including any variant which at some point have had official recognition. Not any mistake made in the history of the Norwegian language.

Orally I accept every dialect we have, with all its variants without question. When we are dealing with what are blatant grammatical mistakes, and recognized as mistakes by 8-year olds, within the very same variant they speak, then that it another matter.

I know there are a lot of people, also on this forum, who think we should have a descriptive approcah to grammar, and not a normative one. I am not of that opinion. Some words are part of the standard, some are part of a dialect, and some are mistakes. My children have teachers with at least 8 different Norwegian dialects, and several foreigners with broken Norwegian. No problem. But a mistake is still a mistake.

Of course what is a mistake at one point, may become part of a standard at a later point.When I was a kid the correct sentence would be " I saw him". Now you are allowed to say "I saw he" - and younger people do not even know when it should be " he" or "him", they only use "he". And that is fine. Personally I continue saying "him", but I accept that others make differents choices.

However when they start saying things like:
"Her saw it", instead of "She saw it" or "That is themses" instead of "That is theirs", then I cringe. I doubly cringe when it is a person who is supposedly teaching the children Norwegian.

Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 28 October 2013 at 2:06pm

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Medulin
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 Message 15 of 26
28 October 2013 at 4:38pm | IP Logged 
Yesterday I read a Swedish magazine, and it was fairy easy to understand.
Written Swedish looks like a mix of Bokmaal and Nynorsk, with somewhat different spelling and a few different words here and there.
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Ari
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 Message 16 of 26
28 October 2013 at 6:21pm | IP Logged 
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
Of course what is a mistake at one point, may become part of a standard at a later point.When I was a kid the correct sentence would be " I saw him". Now you are allowed to say "I saw he" - and younger people do not even know when it should be " he" or "him", they only use "he". And that is fine. Personally I continue saying "him", but I accept that others make differents choices.

Actually, at least in Swedish, "Jag såg honom" is the newer form, and "Jag såg han" is the older. Thus, speaking from a normative historical perspective, you're the one making the "mistake". But we respect your choice, of course. Some are just more conservative in their speech. :)

Wikipedia wrote:
Däremot var promonena "honom" och "henne" i stället ursprungligen dativformer, medan motsvarande ackusativformer var "han" (identisk med nominativen) respektive "hana". Än i dag säger man gärna "han" eller "hon" i stället för "honom" och "henne" i talspråk, som t ex "jag såg han" (vilket var det enda korrekta i fornsvenskan) istället för "jag såg honom" (vilket anses vara det enda korrekta idag). Ännu mer talspråkliga eller dialektala är kortformerna "n" och "na", som i t ex "jag såg 'n" eller "jag såg 'na", vilka direkt härstammar från de gamla ackusativformerna.



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