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Message 1 of 4724 November 2013 at 1:54pm | IP Logged
What is in your opinion the difference between a speaker who has passed a C2 examination and a naitive
speaker of the same language , I think there is a difference ,a fairly big one , do you agree ? What is you
take on that ?
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Message 2 of 4724 November 2013 at 2:24pm | IP Logged
Tons and hosts of idiomatic expressions, ability to understand different accents in
detail, not missing anything said, knowing the aspects of the vocabulary rather than the
Edited by fireballtrouble on 24 November 2013 at 2:25pm
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Message 3 of 4724 November 2013 at 2:30pm | IP Logged
|What is in your opinion the difference between a speaker who has passed
a C2 examination and a naitive
speaker of the same language , I think there is a difference ,a fairly big one , do you
agree ? What is you
take on that ?
There is a difference, but it's on micro-level details.
It doesn't really matter in terms of overall-functioning.
C2 also refers to academic skills.
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Message 4 of 4724 November 2013 at 3:19pm | IP Logged
The upgrade from C2 to "educated native level" is the biggest of all, which is why very
few ever get there. Massive amount of differences, but yes, all in the details. Double or
triple the passive vocab of C2, tons of proper nouns,culutral references that C2 wouldn't
know, tons of idiomatic expressions, slang, perfect usage indestinguishable from a native,
perfect understanding in nearly all situations,and working memory and math in L2 on par
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Message 5 of 4724 November 2013 at 4:47pm | IP Logged
A lot also depends on whether the person with the C2 certificate has actually lived in an immersive
environment for a significant amount of time. As with any discipline, there is a difference between passing an
academic exam and applying you knowledge in real life situations.
Edited by beano on 24 November 2013 at 4:48pm
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Message 6 of 4724 November 2013 at 5:00pm | IP Logged
This discussion seems to pop up every week now. Perhaps it stems from an innate desire for perfection that just isn't achievable for the vast majority of learners, especially those of us outside of target language countries. Striving for perfection can be worthy. On the other hand it can be very detrimental, especially when learners allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good.
As human beings, we know this, but something inside of some learners seems to demand perfection. What one can do with A2 in a language is quite useful. What one can do with B1, even more so. B2 gives a learner a license to romp and frolic, though imperfectly, within the language. B2 is a realistic goal, achievable through hard work and effort, persistence and consistency. Reaching B2, as a self-learner outside the TL country, takes a lot of effort. It is an accomplishment of which one can be very proud. You then realize that there's a lot more to learn. It takes even more work to make the leap to reach C1. C1 is a huge achievement. C2, to me, is an amazing accomplishment that takes even more work and effort to polish and refine one's skills.
C1 and C2 require so much more dedication and effort. Reaching either would make most of us deliriously happy. Beyond that, is the brass ring that even the best learners will not be able to grab without spending a significant portion, perhaps even decades or the rest of one's life, in the TL country. That's why the CEFR doesn't have a C3 designation, and why I'm not worried about it- at all.
Edited by iguanamon on 24 November 2013 at 6:31pm
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Message 7 of 4724 November 2013 at 8:51pm | IP Logged
|Tons and hosts of idiomatic expressions, ability to understand
different accents in
detail, not missing anything said, knowing the aspects of the vocabulary rather than
But sometimes native speakers cannot understand other native speakers of their own
I used to have a lecturer from Londonderry/Derry that took me several months to
understand due to the accent, for example, and right now during the Ashes series in
Australia, I cannot fully understand half of the Australians that are interviewed in
broadcast. My grandmother also has serious problems understanding American English and
accents, and Canadian accents.
I have heard numerous times that Portuguese speakers in Portugal and Brazil have
problems understanding each other, and that even subtitles are required for television
programmes from the other country. I am not a native speaker of Portuguese, but I learn
the European version, and I have major problems understanding Brazilian Portuguese
television or speakers.
Also C2 might be more difficult for someone who has not attended university due to the
nature of the topics and discourse, or even
more difficult, if they stopped school directly after primary school.
Edited by 1e4e6 on 24 November 2013 at 11:51pm
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Message 8 of 4725 November 2013 at 10:24am | IP Logged
There is a HUGE difference in speaking, but very minimal difference in reading, writing and listening. I think that this is due to the nature of the CEFR exams with a very strong emphasis on being able to craft a prepared speech etc as opposed to real, everyday discussion with a native speaker. I have passed the C2 en francais and it is a language that I use very often in real life. Still, when it comes to just having conversations, I am nowhere near a native speaker. There are still times when I want to say something but just do not know how to say it well.
Writing, however, is an area where I think I have surpassed some native speakers (like how some foreigners have better English than the average US or Australian teenager) and same for reading, which is easier in French than English sometimes. Listening is generally okay, but it's the speaking that gets me most of the time.
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