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C2 vs native speaker

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47 messages over 6 pages: 1 24 5 6  Next >>
Lugubert
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Sweden
Joined 4976 days ago

186 posts - 235 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*, Danish, Norwegian, EnglishC2, German, Dutch, French
Studies: Mandarin, Hindi

 
 Message 17 of 47
17 December 2013 at 11:28pm | IP Logged 
I don't feel comfortable with the CEFR levels. How many first-language speakers reach C2 levels on all parameters for another language? For French, I'm all over the scale. On a good day, I'm at listening a low A2. But you'd have to work hard to find a text that will challenge my claim to written C2 understanding. Customers sure go for my translations.

For written C2 vs. natives, an anecdote. I was on a translating job, Swedish to English: three native speakers and myself, all experienced professional translators. Very specialized subject and several other constraints in selecting the crew. We were supposed to review each other's work. One of the guys wasn't quite comfortable with me, the alien, commenting on his English. After a few sessions of different combinations among us, everybody accepted me as an equal partner.

As discussed earlier, I sure make mistakes now and then on colloquialisms and current events, but generally, I think people on the Internet won't spot my unenglishness other than by my not making too many grammar or spelling errors.
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geoffw
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 2797 days ago

1134 posts - 1865 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish
Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian

 
 Message 18 of 47
17 December 2013 at 11:32pm | IP Logged 
Lugubert wrote:
but generally, I think people on the Internet won't spot my
unenglishness other than by my not making too many grammar or spelling errors.


And we'll spot your unamericanness by your lack of lack of subtlety in your humor.
3 persons have voted this message useful



tastyonions
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 2774 days ago

1044 posts - 1823 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Spanish
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 19 of 47
17 December 2013 at 11:33pm | IP Logged 
Lugubert wrote:
I don't feel comfortable with the CEFR levels. How many first-language speakers reach C2 levels on all parameters for another language? For French, I'm all over the scale. On a good day, I'm at listening a low A2. But you'd have to work hard to find a text that will challenge my claim to written C2 understanding. Customers sure go for my translations.

That's pretty interesting! I imagine you could develop much better listening skills rather rapidly if your vocabulary is already so good. Do you just not have the motivation to do so?
1 person has voted this message useful



tastyonions
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 2774 days ago

1044 posts - 1823 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Spanish
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 20 of 47
17 December 2013 at 11:36pm | IP Logged 
geoffw wrote:
Lugubert wrote:
but generally, I think people on the Internet won't spot my unenglishness other than by my not making too many grammar or spelling errors.

And we'll spot your unamericanness by your lack of lack of subtlety in your humor.

I thought the British were supposed to be the ones with the subtle humor. We're just the savages cracking up at fart jokes, right? :-)
4 persons have voted this message useful



geoffw
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 2797 days ago

1134 posts - 1865 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish
Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian

 
 Message 21 of 47
17 December 2013 at 11:37pm | IP Logged 
tastyonions wrote:
geoffw wrote:
Lugubert wrote:
but generally, I think people on
the Internet won't spot my unenglishness other than by my not making too many grammar or
spelling errors.

And we'll spot your unamericanness by your lack of lack of subtlety in your humor.

I thought the British were supposed to be the ones with the subtle humor. We're just the
savages cracking up at fart jokes, right? :-)


Read more carefully...

EDIT: You may have gotten confused if your brain was partially in Spanish mode.

Edited by geoffw on 17 December 2013 at 11:42pm

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tastyonions
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 2774 days ago

1044 posts - 1823 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Spanish
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 22 of 47
17 December 2013 at 11:44pm | IP Logged 
I'll put it down to having just woken up from a nap. :-)
1 person has voted this message useful



Cristianoo
Triglot
Senior Member
Brazil
https://projetopoligRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 2230 days ago

175 posts - 289 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, FrenchB2, English
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 23 of 47
18 December 2013 at 2:48am | IP Logged 
fireballtrouble wrote:
Tons and hosts of idiomatic expressions, ability to understand
different accents in
detail, not missing anything said, knowing the aspects of the vocabulary rather than
the
word count.


not missing anything said => That's not true. Sometimes you miss words, but since
you're native you will consider this rather a noisy or a accent issue than a language
fault.

And also, there's tons of words you don't know in your own language. Even non-field
related words. And this is not considered as a lack of language. Probably just because
one is a native.

In my opinion, the difference from a native and a fluent is the foreign accent. If
someone can speak without a foreign accent (which is very rare) he/she is a native to
me.

My father-in-law is japanese and he speaks portuguese without jp accent 99% of the
time. So I guess the difference here relies on this 1% left.

My co-worker came from Colombia. He speaks almost 100% portuguese without accent. It
took me 3 months to realise that he was not a Brazilian and I only noticed it because
of a strange 'si' instead of 'sim' (yes) that seemed like spoken in Spanish.

And I remember that I taught: Hmm.. I think this guys is a native, but he probably have
studied abroad and got this strange 'si'...

So I guess the difference relies on the foreign accent. If someone can speak without
it, it's a native speaker to me.
1 person has voted this message useful



Lugubert
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Sweden
Joined 4976 days ago

186 posts - 235 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*, Danish, Norwegian, EnglishC2, German, Dutch, French
Studies: Mandarin, Hindi

 
 Message 24 of 47
18 December 2013 at 10:18am | IP Logged 
tastyonions wrote:
Lugubert wrote:
I don't feel comfortable with the CEFR levels. How many first-language speakers reach C2 levels on all parameters for another language? For French, I'm all over the scale. On a good day, I'm at listening a low A2. But you'd have to work hard to find a text that will challenge my claim to written C2 understanding. Customers sure go for my translations.

That's pretty interesting! I imagine you could develop much better listening skills rather rapidly if your vocabulary is already so good. Do you just not have the motivation to do so?

Yes, probably most of the problem is lack of motivation. But it might be aggravated by faulty eardrum signal processing before the information gets to the language centres.


1 person has voted this message useful



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