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1e4e6
Octoglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
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Message 9 of 41

19 December 2013 at 12:29am | IP Logged

Probably too old to be called recent since this happened more than two centuries ago, but
in Spanish, the future subjunctive used to be used as often as in Portuguese, "Cuando te
fueres, dímelo" (compare Portuguese: "Quando fores-te, diz-mo".
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Medulin
Tetraglot
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Croatia
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Message 10 of 41

24 December 2013 at 1:43pm | IP Logged

Future subjunctive calls for proclisis: Quando TE fores, diz-me
(Enclisis is found only with O(S)/A(S) in semieducated formal written Brazilian Portuguese: Se você procurá-lo...)

Edited by Medulin on 24 December 2013 at 1:43pm
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Henkkles
Triglot
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Finland
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Message 11 of 41

24 December 2013 at 2:51pm | IP Logged

Well the only "new" thing I know of is the double partitive of "moni".
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lingoleng
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Germany
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Message 12 of 41

24 December 2013 at 7:45pm | IP Logged

montmorency wrote:

Papashaw1 wrote:

... I also read of some sort of double
perfect (Ich habe gehabt), which I am not sure of its purpose, but it goes back centuries.

I think I read an example of that very recently, in "Effi Briest" (late 19th century),
in about chapter 6, and thought at first it was the pluperfect (Plusquamperfekt), and
then realised there was something "odd" about it.

I will have to look out for further examples.

ich lobe - ich lobte - ich habe gelobt
Ich habe - ich hatte - ich habe gehabt

Not a double perfect; not very odd, either. Further examples should be easy to find.
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Cabaire
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Germany
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Message 13 of 41

25 December 2013 at 11:58am | IP Logged

Well, in Upper German they say things like:

- Ich hab's ganz vergessen gehabt instead of "Ich hatte es ganz vergessen"
- Ich bin eingeschlafen gewesen instead of "Ich war eingeschlafen"

Maybe you mean this by "double perfect", but in reality it is a past perfect.

Edited by Cabaire on 25 December 2013 at 11:59am
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lingoleng
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Germany
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Message 14 of 41

25 December 2013 at 8:29pm | IP Logged

Cabaire wrote:

Well, in Upper German they say things like:
- Ich hab's ganz vergessen gehabt instead of "Ich hatte es ganz vergessen"
- Ich bin eingeschlafen gewesen instead of "Ich war eingeschlafen"
Maybe you mean this by "double perfect", but in reality it is a past perfect.

As a native speaker of Bavarian I can confirm that. The explanation is quite simple: We don't have a Präteritum I ( exception "war", and maybe "wollte", "sollte"). Instead of "Ich hatte" we say "Ich habe gehabt".
Some short notes can be found here Doppeltes_Perfekt (includes a link to an article of Bastian Sick, who does not know or ignores the origin of the phenomenon, but gives nevertheless some nice examples how it is used in not always completely convincing ways) and here Passé surcomposé, alemannisch.

Edited by lingoleng on 25 December 2013 at 8:34pm
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Stolan
Senior Member
United States
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Speaks: English*
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Studies: Arabic (classical), Cantonese

Message 15 of 41

26 December 2013 at 10:05am | IP Logged

I think I use dove for the past (I dove just then) but for phrasal verbs or past participles I tend to use dived (I dived
off that board) and snuck for the simple past and the -ed form for the past participle. I also use many verbs with
the -t ending instead of -ed (learnt, burnt) for the past participle but not for the simple past. This is my
subconscious style from being in both the east and west.
Do irregular verbs stay at some constant? It seems while we are not using some anymore, other have become
irregular in turn.

To lingoleng: I swear I saw Ich hatte V gehabt somewhere before, what does this double preterite perfect mean?

Edited by Stolan on 26 December 2013 at 10:08am
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Henkkles
Triglot
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Finland
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Studies: Russian

Message 16 of 41

26 December 2013 at 11:14am | IP Logged

Stolan wrote:

Do you mean irregular verbs or strong verbs? For example "rise; rose; risen" is not an irregular verb, it's a strong verb, but "catch; caught; caught" is an irregular verb.

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