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Gary’s TAC 2014: Spanish, Italian, French | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| agantik Triglot Senior Member France Joined 4434 days ago 217 posts - 335 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Italian Studies: German, Norwegian | Message 97 of 138 15 August 2014 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | ||
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You've got all my sympathy! Indeed sleep deprivation is torture, and you can't do anything properly,
especially use your brain to learn languages! (Says a mother of two who stayed awake several nights in a row when her son was teething :-) Have you tried hawthorne - based medicine (or other relaxing plants) ? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4421 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 98 of 138 15 August 2014 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | ||
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It's quite interesting to read your thoughts on learning related languages, something I have avoided, but at times am tempted to do, especially with Portuguese or Italian since I can already often understand partially, but like you, I know it isn't that simple and would likely be a lot of work!
Also similar to you, I've had mixed experiences at Meetups and now only do them occasionally. I don't think they improve one's ability in the areas of correct grammar, pronunciation and so forth, since the emphasis is on quick replies even if they aren't grammatically correct. Somewhere I read that native speakers are more tolerant of people who speak fluidly and quickly with errors, than of people who speak correctly but slowly. That seems to be true at Meetups and while responding without hesitation is an essential skill to develop, it doesn't help one become more accurate in speaking. The social aspect of a Meetup can be quite nice, since language study can be rather solitary, though sometimes they can be too noisy to get optimal language exposure since they tend to be in busy cafes or bars. I have found speaking with native speakers in other contexts such as skype or in-person one-on-one conversations to be useful because usually the other person tends to be more patient and one can develop the conversation into deeper levels, especially if there is a structured topic to discuss (not just "how was your week"). Of course, the downside is that you have to pay (either you hire a tutor or you exchange your time in practicing each other's language). I haven't used italki myself, but have heard good things about it. Of course, what you're doing is the best: lots of input, lots of output, focusing on the areas you feel you need the most work, and trying lots of different things out to see what works best for you. Regarding sleep and relaxation, perhaps trying some sort of meditation/relaxation/yoga materials in your language of choice might be worth trying? Cheers. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5006 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 99 of 138 15 August 2014 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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agantik: Yeah, when I complain about sleep deprivation I always have to remember that parents of young children often have it much worse and they still manage! I haven't tried hawthorne-based medicine although I have tried a couple of things, and they can help, but for me it's largely just a mental problem of not being able to "switch off" and stop thinking so that's why I'm hoping that things like meditation might help. Although every little helps and something that relaxes you physically can help you relax mentally too.
BAnna: I fully agree with your points about meetups, especially the point about quick replies versus speaking more slowly and correctly. These days I only really go if I feel like socialising and don't have other plans. I find that they're most productive if you can break into smaller groups or one-to-one conversations rather than speaking with a big group, but it varies. For my Italian, my main practice is speaking with friends. Which is great in a lot of ways as I'm doing something I'd be doing anyway, spending time with people and socialising, so I don't feel like I'm "paying" time for it, plus I pick up a lot of everyday language that can be hard to come by in more formal study. At the same time though, it's not the same as a tutor or exchange partner who points out mistakes and helps you learn as opposed to just practise. So everything has its advantages and disadvantages. Edited by garyb on 15 August 2014 at 6:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| suzukaze Triglot Senior Member Italy bit.ly/1bGm459 Joined 4401 days ago 186 posts - 254 votes Speaks: Italian*, English, Spanish Studies: German, French, Swedish, Japanese | Message 100 of 138 16 August 2014 at 5:42pm | IP Logged | ||
Similarities between Italian and Spanish are overstated indeed. At the beginning it may not be obvious, but as your language study progresses you cannot fail to notice that several differences do exist. This is a mistake even native speakers make. Back at university several of my Spanish language classmates opted to leave French or German in order to study Spanish thinking it would make their life easier, but they grossly miscalculated…and the amount of people who failed the final exams proved that ;) As someone who studies languages from both the same and different group of my native language I definitely prefer German over Spanish. Even though studying German is much more difficult, and I dare say even more frustrating, the interference of my native Italian into Spanish is what annoys me the most. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5006 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 101 of 138 18 August 2014 at 11:56am | IP Logged | ||
That's all interesting stuff and it's good to see it from a native speaker's perspective. Similar languages are definitely a double-edged sword: the similarities help a lot, especially at the beginner stage, but there are indeed also lots of differences and at times maintaining the mental model of what works the same and what works differently can seem harder than just learning something unrelated. For example, French, Italian, and Spanish all have the subjunctive, and while the logic behind it is similar, the rules for where it's actually used certainly vary! "Penso che sia" is weird when you're used to French or Spanish, and "cuando llegues" is strange coming from French or Italian. Things that are almost the same, like "non lo so" and "no lo sé", are easy to mix up when speaking. And don't get me started on the strange things that Spanish does with indirect objects. Personally I found that when I started learning Italian I got a lot of interference with French, but it mostly went away as my Italian level became more solid. I'm hoping the same will happen for Spanish. But one thing that I think helps me keep French and Italian separate in my mind is that, while the vocabulary and grammar have a lot of similarities, they just sound so different, especially when you consider prosody as well as phonemes. "Parler" and "parlare" may look similar but they certainly don't sound similar when you factor in the stress and intonation in the Italian one, the silent final consonant in the French one, and the completely distinct R sounds. There's no way I'm going to say one instead of the other. Spanish, on the other hand, is more phonetically similar to Italian so it's easier to accidentally slip in a wrong word or switch entirely. This weekend I was at a party with a lot of Italians and some Spanish, some of whom spoke each other's languages, and I was speaking both. It got a bit messy, with switching languages mid-conversation and even mid-sentence. I heard some great ones like "tenía que parlare con lei" and one of my own was "ce ne sono aquí". No comprehension problems whatsoever of course. Plenty English in there too of course. It was good fun and nice to know that even people who speak one of them natively or speak both at high levels mix them up in a situation like that. Edited by garyb on 18 August 2014 at 1:01pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sarnek Diglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4014 days ago 308 posts - 414 votes Speaks: Italian*, English Studies: German, Swedish | Message 102 of 138 19 August 2014 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've just read that short bit of Italian you've written and, I must say, I'm truly
impressed: some very advanced Italian right there. Props to you, keep it up! Edited by Sarnek on 19 August 2014 at 5:55pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5006 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 103 of 138 20 August 2014 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks Sarnek!
Input Italian: watching Il Divo. It's very well done but a bit too political for me, especially as I'm not very familiar with Italian prime ministers. But it's interesting to learn of course. And I've finished Gli amori difficili and started Palomar, again by Calvino. Like his other work I've read so far, it's short but difficult. I've also been watching a bit of Youtube comedy, like Fancazzisti Anonimi. Spanish: watched a bit more Desaparecida. I'm understanding a bit better without subtitles, although it still takes a lot of focus. The story seems to be going around in circles a bit. Have they found her yet? Surprise surprise, no they haven't! Pronunciation Still working on rhythm, and probably will be for the next few weeks. I'm seeing definite improvements but it still takes some conscious effort, especially for these annoying vowels at the end of syllable groups that I still mess up half the time. I did feel a bit of a "breakthrough" at the weekend when I was speaking with an Italian and the correct rhythm seemed much more natural. I'm also trying to not make the same mistakes in Spanish, as undoing bad habits is a pain. Yesterday I came across a Youtube video of imitations of foreign accents in Italian. I'm quite sure that my accent is better than the English one in that! But the defining features of it are indeed stress-timed rhythm and mispronounced unstressed vowels. CEFR levels The discussion on the general forum and a read through the self-assessment checklist made me think about this again. It mostly just confirmed what I thought: my Italian is around B2. Which is nice. I also mentioned the hairy goals thread, and said that C1 is the sort of goal that is probably possible but not easy. While I'm still not convinced I'll ever reach it without proper immersion, I think that some of the criteria at least give me an idea of what to aim for in order to get at least some of the way there. "Language quality" is the killer: the descriptions of fluency, effortlessness and smooth flow under that heading for C1 sound more like a dream than anything realistic. But you know, shoot for the stars and reach the moon. My French at its peak was much more fluid than my Italian, and I didn't even have as many opportunities to speak it, so I know it's possible to make some progress here. For listening I'm probably most of the way there already, but strong regional accents and usage still mess me up and I struggle to understand things like Montalbano without subtitles. Although if I say that to Italian friends they'll often joke that they also struggle with certain accents. In terms of reading, I suppose the Calvino I've been reading recently is "contemporary literary texts", and I'm not exactly reading them "with ease" just yet! But reading and listening are things that tend to just get better as you do them more, unlike active skills with which plateaus often need to be overcome with special attention. All I can really take from all this is to, just as Sarnek said, keep it up! Sometimes I get a bit frustrated at my level, but it's really just impatience and at the moment there isn't really anything obstructing my progress. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5006 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 104 of 138 25 August 2014 at 11:16am | IP Logged | ||
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Last week was a bit busy and tough, and my social life has somewhat died recently for various reasons, so I've not had loads of time and opportunity for study or practice. But the festival period here is over now so things should quieten down. I did have a brief conversation yesterday when I bumped into a couple of Italian friends and it felt quite smooth, but other than that most of my speaking has been self-talk.
I've finally watched a couple of episodes of Romanzo criminale: la serie. The language is more Roman than Italian, but I understand it fairly well. Romanesco is so widespread in media that Italians, and by extension Italian learners, are pretty much expected to understand it, at least to an extent. Crime series/films/books seem the best way to "access" local variations of the language without visiting the areas; for example there's also Montalbano for Sicily, and various giallo novels set all around the country. On the subject of local variations, I attempted a Mexican film, Y tu mamá también. I tried with Spanish subtitles but gave up after about fifteen minutes: far too much completely unfamiliar Mexican slang for me to deal with. The accent isn't really a problem, just the words. I've decided I'll just watch it more passively with English subs, to at least get some exposure to the accent and enjoy the story, and perhaps watch it again in a year or two. Eventually I'll want to learn to understand that stuff but for now I'm sticking to peninsular Spanish. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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