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Is.t n(y).t r n(y) km.t (Team Egyptian)

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emk
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 Message 25 of 43
04 January 2014 at 10:09pm | IP Logged 
I've added some resources to the first post, but let me mention them here:

- Ruth Kramer's concise overview of Egyptian grammar using standard linguistics terminology.
- St Andrews corpus, including a large number of PDF files with hieroglyphs, transliterations and translations, plus an XML corpus and Java-based viewer.
- The Westcar papyrus online, with detailed commentary and a dictionary mode.
- To typeset hieroglyphs, try JSesh.
- Linux users familiar with ibus may want to try these experimental input methods.

The St Andrews corpus contains a long list of amazing PDFs, including the Westcar papyrus:



(This comes from a tale of adultery and magic that ends with somebody getting devoured by a wax crocodile.)

Ruth Kramer's grammar overview also contains a version of The Shipwrecked Sailor using the Leipzig Glossing Rules:



Note to self: Actually learn Leipzig Glossing Rules for use in challenges, instead of just making up my own glossing conventions.

As I've been flipping through these native texts, I'm increasingly impressed by Assimil's course: Their vocabulary choices might seem a bit eccentric, but in fact, all that stuff about gardens, trees, pendants, etc., turns out to quite useful for real texts.

Edited by emk on 04 January 2014 at 10:15pm

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akkadboy
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 Message 26 of 43
04 January 2014 at 11:39pm | IP Logged 
The use of the definite article "pA" in the Westcar papyrus 2,6 is interesting since Middle Egyptian is described as having no (in)definite article. "pA" was originally a demonstrative and later weakened into an article.

It is sometimes found in letters from the Middle Kingdom and literary texts from the late Middle Kingdom/Second Intermediate Period (such as P. Westcar), but it is only in "Egyptien de seconde phase" (Late Egyptian/Demotic/Coptic) that the use of articles is really part of the system.

Before this, its use was apparently frowned upon by members of the ruling class during the Middle Kingdom as is attested by a stela in which the owner makes sure to mention that his "speech is free of pA's".

Edited by akkadboy on 05 January 2014 at 9:54am

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emk
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 Message 27 of 43
05 January 2014 at 1:42pm | IP Logged 
akkadboy wrote:
Before this, its use was apparently frowned upon by members of the ruling class during the Middle Kingdom as is attested by a stela in which the owner makes sure to mention that his "speech is free of pA's".

Thank you! I'm always fascinated by the difference between spoken and written grammar, and how the spoken forms gradually leak into formal writing. I found more about the "speech is free of pA's" story on Language Log.

emk wrote:
The St Andrews corpus contains a long list of amazing PDFs, including the Westcar papyrus:



(This comes from a tale of adultery and magic that ends with somebody getting devoured by a wax crocodile.)

Let's take a shot at a Leipzig-style gloss, using "/" as a column marker and "PCLE" for "particle".

๐“‡‹๐“…ฑ-๐“„Ÿ๐“‹ด๐“€ / ๐“ƒน๐“ˆ– / ๐“Š๐“Šช๐“๐“‰ / ๐“…“ / ๐“…ฎ๐“…“ / ๐“ˆ™๐“ˆ‡๐“ค / ๐“ˆ– / ๐“๐“ƒ€๐“…ก๐“„ฟ๐“›-๐“‡‹๐“ˆ–๐“‚‹๐“ŠŒ๏ปฟ๐“€€
iw-ms / wn / Ssp-t / m / pA / S / n / wbA-inr
PCLE-surely.PCLE / be.PCLE / pavilion-F / in / ART / garden / of.MSG / open-stone
"Surely there's a pavilion in the garden of Ubainr."

๐“…“๐“‚-๐“ / ๐“ˆ–๐“ฅ / ๐“น=๐“ˆ–๐“ฅ / ๐“„ฟ๐“๐“ฏ๐“‡ณ๐“ค / ๐“‡‹๐“…“=๐“‹ด
m-T / n / ir=n / At / im=s
look.PCLE-FSG / we.1PL / make.SBJV?=we.1PL / time / in=her.3FSG
"Look, let's spend time in it."

There's a great discussion of iw-ms in Allen's Middle Egyptian: An Introduction. Basically, this is the "snake-oil salesman" particle: It's used to introduce persuasive sentences, and it if you use it as a noun, it means "inexactitude, lie". I'm guessing the ir=n is actually one of the oddball sDm.f forms, perhaps the subjunctive. When in doubt, consult the conjugation charts in theย English-language Wiktionary, but be sure to use North American transcription conventions.

I like this format for detailed glosses!

Edited by emk on 05 January 2014 at 8:20pm

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emk
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 Message 28 of 43
18 January 2014 at 9:29pm | IP Logged 
Don't forget, we still have two more columns left on our second challenge. :-) No rush; I just don't want us to forget it completely.

I've updated the transliteration below to match the conventions used on hierogl.ch.

Quote:

i*(mn:n:n)-<-C1\*C12-N36-ms*s*sw->
X8*anx-f-nb-s*(n:(b*Y1v))-nb
Aw-t*ib-nb-(ra:ra)*mi-nb

This time, we have transliterations courtesy of Cfeetk:

imn n(y) ra-ms-sw-mry-imn
d=f anx nb snb nb
Awt-ib nb(t) mi ra ra nb

A quick review of transliteration conventions you'll encounter in the wild:

Assimil: i, j
United States, elsewhere: j, y
Manuel de Codage: i, y

Assimil is unfortunately in the minority here, and so I propose that we stick with the two later conventions as much as we can from here on.
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emk
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 Message 29 of 43
18 January 2014 at 9:34pm | IP Logged 

Thesaurus Linguae Aegyptiae: A short guide

Linguee is one of my all-time favorite language learning tools. I wish it existed for Egyptian. But let's just imagine, for a moment, that I wanted to design the worst imaginable Linguee clone. Here's how I'd do it. I'd:

1. Require an account to log in.
2. Make the search system as inflexible and unforgiving as humanly possible.
3. Make it difficult to bookmark entries using URLs.
4. Put 1/rd of the interface, and 9/10ths of the definitions in a third language, just so users have to run everything through Google Translate and pray.

Anyway, this site does exist for Egyptian! It's called Thesaurus Linguae Aegyptiae, and it contains an absolutely enormous database of words and a huge selection of Egyptian texts. Much of the system is in German, although there is an English overview available, too.

Anyway, you can some cool stuff with this site, once you get the hang of it. For example, you can search by transliteration (using the "j,y" convention):



Searching will give you a list of matches. (Well, it will will do so very occasionally, if your transliteration was exactly right.) Do not enable Chrome's translation support on this screen or it will break!



If you read the glyphs from right to left, you'll probably find what you're looking for. Click, and check it out:



Note the "short reference" field. This can be written down, and later re-entered in the matching search field. Ah, my kingdom for a URL... Anyway, you can also ask for examples in context:



There's also a second form on the search page which allows you to search for all known words containing a particular Gardiner sign number. This is always a help when you're lucky enough to get a rare determinative.

Anyway, I don't recommend TLA as an everyday dictionary. It's really quite painful, even if we ignore the fact I don't speak any German. But when hierogl.ch and Wikipedia fail, all you need to do is run over to TLA end spend 10 minutes trying every possible transliteration until it finally coughs up a lovely set of definitions.
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emk
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 Message 30 of 43
19 January 2014 at 10:58pm | IP Logged 
OK, I'm getting tired of glossing hieroglyphs by hand, and so I just hacked up the Kramdown parser (a nice configurable Markdown parser written in Ruby) to do two things:

1. Support interlinear glosses of hieroglyphic texts.
2. Output HTLAL's flavor of BBCode.

I can also render these as regular HTML (with webfonts!) or as BBCode + tables. Here's part of the story of Ubainer, glossed in French, with my personal notes:



Who, me? Crazy? Maybe just a little. But if you want a copy of the script, please feel free to ask and I'll clean it up a bit.

Anyway, here's everything I've translated up to now in HTLAL format, complete with clickable hieroglyphs (except the obvious ones) and glosses. Let's see how it looks:

Le conte dโ€™Oubaonรฉ

Cette traduction est basรฉe sur ce PDF du corpus dโ€™St Andrews, avec une traduction en anglais par Mark-Jan Nederhof avec une transcription hiรฉroglyphique par Serge Rosmorduc.

Cette transcription nโ€™est quโ€™un exercice dโ€™apprentissage, avec beaucoup de fautes.

๐“‚ป๐“ฒ๐“ | ๐“Šช๐“…ฑ | ๐“น๐“ˆ–๐“†‘ | ๐“Ž›๐“ˆ–๐“‚ | ๐“๐“„ฟ | ๐“๐“ƒ€๐“…ก๐“„ฟ๐“‡‹๐“‡‹๐“๐“›
jw.t | pw | jr.n=f | แธฅn๊œฅ | t๊œฃ | wb๊œฃ.yt
venir-INF | PCLE | faire-AORISTE?=3MSG | avec | ART.FSG | domestique
Ce qu'il a fait, c'รฉtait de venir avec la domestique.

Ici, on a ยซ INFINITIF pw jr.n SUJET ยป, qui est expliquรฉ ici (en anglais). Pour wb๊œฃ.yt, vois Wb 1, 292.7-8; FCD 58; Ward, Titles, no. 706 sur Theasaurus Linguae Aegyptiae.

๐“๐“‚‹๐“€’ | ๐“…“๐“†ฑ๐“๐“๐“‚ป | ๐“‰”๐“‚‹๐“ฒ๐“‡ณ๐“ฅ | ๐“ด๐“‚ป | ๐“ท๐“ค | ๐“‡’
แธซr | m-แธซt | hrw.w | sw๊œฃ(.w) | แธฅr | nn
plus | aprรจs | jours-MPL | passรฉs-3PL | sur | ces???
Et puis plusieurs jours aprรจs รงa,

๐“‡‹๐“‹ด๐“ | ๐“‚‹๐“†‘ | ๐“ƒน๐“ˆ– | ๐“Š๐“Šช๐“๐“‰ | ๐“…“ | ๐“…ฎ | ๐“ˆ™๐“ˆ‡๐“ค | ๐“ˆ– | ๐“๐“ƒ€๐“…ก๐“„ฟ๐“›๐“‡‹๐“ˆ–๐“‚‹๐“ŠŒ๐“€€
jsแนฏ | r=f | wn | ลกsp.t | m | p๊œฃ | ลก | n(y) | wb๊œฃ-jnr
PCLE | quant.ร =lui | PCLE | pavillon | dans | le | jardin | de | Oubaonรฉ
โ€”il y avait un pavillon dans le jardin d'Oubaonรฉโ€”

Un mot sur ลก. Selon Theasaurus Linguae Aegyptiae (Wb 4, 397.1-398.17), รงa veut dire ยซ See; Revier; Garten (mit Teich); Becken; Opferschale ยป. Et avec un peu dโ€™aide de Goolge Traduction, on a ยซ lac; domaine; jardin (avec un รฉtang); piscine; patรจre ยป. Dans ce texte, il y a un pavillon dans le ลก, mais lโ€™amant va aussi nager dans le ลก. Donc, je pense quโ€™on parle dโ€™un jardin avec un รฉtang ou un bassin, et je vais traduire ลก selon le contexte.

๐“Šข๐“‚๐“ˆ– | ๐“†“๐“‚ง๐“ˆ– | ๐“…ฎ | ๐“ˆ–๐“†“๐“‹ด๐“…ช๐“€€ | ๐“‚œ | ๐“๐“„ฟ | ๐“ˆž๐“๐“ | ๐“๐“ƒ€๐“…ก๐“„ฟ๐“›๐“‡‹๐“ˆ–๐“‚‹๐“ŠŒ๐“€€
๊œฅแธฅ๊œฅ.n | แธd.n | p๊œฃ | nแธs | n | t๊œฃ | แธฅm.t | wb๊œฃ-jnr
puis | a.dit | ART.MSG | petit | ร  | ART.FSG | femme | Oubaonรฉ
puis l'homme (du commun, le roturier) a dit ร  la femme d'Oubaonรฉ

Pour nแธs, vois Wb 2, 385.5-13.

๐“‡‹๐“…ฑ | ๐“„Ÿ๐“‹ด๐“€ | ๐“ƒน๐“ˆ– | ๐“Š๐“Šช๐“๐“‰ | ๐“…“ | ๐“…ฎ | ๐“ˆ™๐“ˆ‡๐“ค | ๐“ˆ– | ๐“๐“ƒ€๐“…ก๐“„ฟ๐“›๐“‡‹๐“ˆ–๐“‚‹๐“ŠŒ๐“€€
jw | ms | wn | ลกsp.t | m | p๊œฃ | ลก | n(y) | wb๊œฃ-jnr
PCLE | sรปrement | est | pavillon.F | m | ART.MSG | jardin | de | Oubaonรฉ
Il y a un pavillon dans le jardin d'Oubaonรฉ.

๐“…“๐“‚๐“ | ๐“ˆ–๐“ฅ | ๐“น๐“ˆ–๐“ฅ | ๐“„ฟ๐“๐“ฏ๐“‡ณ๐“ค | ๐“‡‹๐“…“๐“‹ด
mแนฏ | n | jr=n | ๊œฃt | jm=s
vois.F.PCLE | 1PL | faire=1PL | temps | dans=FSG
Vois, nous y passerons un peu de temps.

๐“Šข๐“‚๐“ˆ– | ๐“‰”๐“„ฟ๐“ƒ€๐“‚ป๐“ˆ– | ๐“๐“„ฟ | ๐“ˆž๐“๐“ | ๐“๐“ƒ€๐“…ก๐“„ฟ๐“›๐“‡‹๐“ˆ–๐“‚‹๐“ŠŒ๐“€€ | ๐“ˆ– | ๐“ท๐“‚‹๐“ญ๐“‰๐“ค๐“€€
๊œฅแธฅ๊œฅ.n | h๊œฃb.n | t๊œฃ | แธฅm.t | wb๊œฃ-jnr | n | แธฅr.j-pr
puis | envoyer-AORISTE | ART.FSG | femme | Oubaonรฉ | pour | sur-NISBE-maison
Puis la femme d'Oubaonรฉ a envoyรฉ pour le gardien

Selon Theasaurus Linguae Aegyptiae (Jones, Titles OK, no. 2220), แธฅr.j-pr veut dire ยซ Hausverwalter, majordomo ยป. Je pense que le mot ยซ gardien ยป serait un bon choix pour ce texte.

๐“ˆ–๐“๐“ญ | ๐“…“๐“Ÿ๐“ค | ๐“…ฏ๐“„ฟ | ๐“ˆ™๐“ˆ‡๐“ค | ๐“‚‹ | ๐“†“๐“‚ง
ntj | m-s๊œฃ | p๊œฃ | ลก | r | แธd
REL.MSG | derriรจre | ART.MSG | jardin | pour | dire.INF
qui รฉtait chargรฉ du jardin pour dire

๐“‡‹๐“…“๐“๐“‚ | ๐“‹ด๐“‹ด๐“Šช๐“‚ง๐“‡ฎ๐“›๐“๐“ฒ | ๐“๐“„ฟ | ๐“Š๐“Šช๐“๐“‰ | ๐“ˆ–๐“๐“ | ๐“…“ | ๐“…ฏ๐“…“ | ๐“ˆ™๐“ˆ‡๐“ค...
jm(j) | sspd.tw | t๊œฃ | ลกsp.t | ntt | m | p๊œฃ | ลก...
fais.que.IMP | prรฉparer-PASS | ART.FSG | pavillon-F | REL.FSG | dans | ART.MSG | jardin...
ยซ Que le pavillon dans le jardin soit prรฉparรฉ...

๐“…จ๐“‚‹๐“ˆ™๐“‡ณ๐“ˆ–๐“‹ด | ๐“‡‹๐“…“ | ๐“ท๐“ค | ๐“‹ด๐“…จ๐“‚‹๐“‡‹๐“€ | ๐“Ž›๐“ˆ–๐“‚ | ๐“…ฏ๐“„ฟ | ๐“ˆ–๐“†“๐“‹ด๐“…ช๐“€€...
wrลก.n=s | jm | แธฅr | swr | แธฅn๊œฅ | p๊œฃ | nแธs...
passer.la.journรฉe-AORISTE?=3FSG | lร  | sur | boire.INF | avec | ART.MSG | petit...
Elle y a passรฉ la journรฉe en buvant avec l'homme (du commun)...

๐“๐“‚‹๐“€’๐“…“๐“†ฑ๐“๐“๐“‚ป | ๐“…“๐“‚๐“ˆ™๐“‚‹๐“ƒญ๐“…ฑ๐“‡ฐ | ๐“†ฃ๐“ฒ | ๐“‚ป๐“…ฑ๐“ | ๐“Šช๐“ฒ | ๐“น๐“ˆ–๐“†‘
แธซr-m-แธซt | mลกrw | แธซpr.w | jw.t | pw | jr.n=f
aprรจs | soir | devenir-STAT.3MSG | venir-INF | PCLE | faire-AORISTE?=3MSG
Une fois le soir venu, il est venu

๐“ƒน๐“ˆ–๐“‡‹๐“ˆ–๐“†‘ | ๐“ท๐“ค | ๐“‰”๐“„ฟ๐“๐“‚ป | ๐“‚‹ | ๐“…ฏ๐“„ฟ | ๐“ˆ™๐“ˆ‡๐“ค
wn.jn=f | แธฅr | h๊œฃ(j).t | r | p๊œฃ | ลก
puis.PCLE=MSG | sur | descendre-INF | vers | ART.MSG | bassin
puis il descendait vers le bassin.

๐“ƒน๐“ˆ–๐“‡‹๐“ˆ– | ๐“๐“„ฟ | ๐“๐“ƒ€๐“…ก๐“„ฟ๐“‡‹๐“‡‹๐“๐“›๐“...
wn.jn | t๊œฃ | wb๊œฃ.yt...
puis | ART.FSG | domestique...
Puis la domestique...

๐“๐“‚‹๐“€’๐“…“๐“†ฑ๐“๐“๐“‚ป | ๐“‡พ๐“ˆ‡๐“ค | ๐“Œ‰๐“†“๐“‡ณ๐“ค๐“ค | ๐“ˆ– | ๐“‰”๐“‚‹๐“ฒ๐“‡ณ๐“ค | ๐“†ฃ๐“‚‹
แธซr-m-แธซt | t๊œฃ | แธฅแธ(.w) | n | hrw | แธซpr(.w)
aprรจs | terre | clair-devenu.3MSG | ร .cause.de? | jour | devenir-STAT.3MSG
Une fois la terre รฉclairรฉe par l'arrivรฉe du jour

๐“†ท๐“„ฟ๐“Šƒ๐“‚ป | ๐“Šช๐“ฒ | ๐“น๐“ˆ– | ๐“…ฏ | ๐“ท๐“‚‹๐“ญ๐“‰๐“ค๐“€€...
ลก๊œฃs | pw | jr.n | p๊œฃ | แธฅr.j-pr
aller.INF | PCLE | faire-AORISTE? | ART.MSG | gardien...
le gardien est allรฉ...



Edited by emk on 19 January 2014 at 11:21pm

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emk
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 Message 31 of 43
22 January 2014 at 3:19pm | IP Logged 
A new toy, for the geeks in the audience: hierogloss. To install this, you'll need a working Ruby 2.0 with bundler. (If you're a geek who's not familiar with Ruby, try RVM to install a custom version of the interpreter. If you're not a geek, you'll probably be happiest leaving all this alone.)

The text below was generated using:

Code:
hierogloss -i -f htlal examples/disjunction.md > test.htlal

The idea is that you write Markdown, with some special extensions, and you can render it in a variety of formats.

Anyway, here's what the output currently looks like:

Quote:
Disjunction in Middle Egyptian

This example is based on one in Allenโ€™s excellent Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs.

| |
s | s.t | r-pw
man | woman | whichever
either [a] man or [a] woman

You can emphasize an โ€œorโ€ by following the options with r-pw.

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YnEoS
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 Message 32 of 43
01 February 2014 at 9:56pm | IP Logged 
I was listening to old archives of the In Our Time radio program, and they have an episode on The Alphabet, which focuses very heavily on ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs and how they developed and evolved and eventually lead to the creation of the alphabet we know and use today. Lots of great information here, including a bit of insight into how Hieroglyphics would've been taught back in the day. Thought it might be of some interest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0054950


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