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Is.t n(y).t r n(y) km.t (Team Egyptian)

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vermillon
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 Message 17 of 43
31 December 2013 at 9:06pm | IP Logged 
Eh, the extract you've shown of the German dictionary has "k.bh.w", with the bird after the classifier, but in 2 it says "Name des Himmels", i.e. "name of the Sky/Heaven".

I'm a bit ashamed that I had found this Wiktionary page and then failed to notice that it mentioned Sky. :)

Also, I'm interested in your ibus input method!

And for line 3:

First 4 signs are directly covered here as sbA "door".

n:3 means "we, us, our" => our

f: he, his, she, her

So I guess it's "Our door is His door". ?


PS: any idea which book would cover prefixes/suffixes in Egyptian? Gardiner? That would make our quests more interesting!

Edited by vermillon on 31 December 2013 at 9:13pm

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emk
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 Message 18 of 43
31 December 2013 at 10:36pm | IP Logged 
vermillon wrote:
Eh, the extract you've shown of the German dictionary has "k.bh.w", with the bird after the classifier, but in 2 it says "Name des Himmels", i.e. "name of the Sky/Heaven".

Oops. I didn't see that scrawl scrunched in the middle there. So I guess we're tied 1-to-1 on dictionary fail today. :-)

vermillon wrote:
Also, I'm interested in your ibus input method!

Sent! Let me know what kind of horrible things it does to your machine. I'm a big believer in learning how to type a language early on, because it makes it much easier to make flash cards.

My guess for line 3 is something like:

Quote:
๐“‹ด๐“‡ผ๐“ƒ€๐“Š€ / ๐“ˆ–๐“ฅ / ๐“‹ด๐“ƒ€๐“„ฟ๐“‡ผ๐“‡ณ๐“ฅ = ๐“†‘
sbA / n? / sbA.w=f
door / to? / stars=his
"his Stargate" (according to Daniel)

The big problem with this theory is the first plural marker ๐“ฅ. I have no idea what that's doing there.

This would give us:

Quote:


๐“‚‹๐“ˆ–๐“Šช๐“†ณ๐“๐“ฅ / ๐“†๐“Ž† / ๐“‚‹ / ๐“ˆŽ๐“ƒ€๐“Ž›๐“…ฑ๐“๐“‡ฏ๐“ˆ‰ / ๐“Šช๐“…ฑ / ๐“‚‹๐“‚๐“š / ๐“…“ / ๐“‡‹๐“๐“ˆ–๐“‡ถ
rnp.wt / 100,000 10 / r / qbH / pw / ra / m / itn
years / million / into / sky / TOPIC? / Ra / as / Aten
"A million years into the sky is Ra, sun god" (Daniel)

๐“…“๐“๐“…“๐“๐“‹ฉV97 . ๐“ˆ– = ๐“†‘ / ๐“ˆŽ๐“‚‹๐“‹ด๐“ŒŸ๐“€œ๐“Šญ๐“€ = ๐“†‘ / ๐“ˆ– / ๐“†“๐“๐“‡พ ๐“‚‹ ๐“…˜๐“Ž›๐“Ž›๐“‡ณ
m? xtm.n=f? / qrs=f / n? / Dt r nHH
PREPOSITION? sealed / buried? / PREPOSITION? / for all time
"sealed and buried for all time" (Daniel)

๐“‹ด๐“‡ผ๐“ƒ€๐“Š€ / ๐“ˆ–๐“ฅ / ๐“‹ด๐“ƒ€๐“„ฟ๐“‡ผ๐“‡ณ๐“ฅ = ๐“†‘
sbA / n? / sbA.w=f
door / to? / stars=his
"his Stargate" (Daniel)

Not bad! We actually got a fair bit of that, though we're almost certainly overlooking quite a few verb endings and prepositions. Go Team ๐“‚‹๐“ค๐“ˆ–๐“†Ž๐“…“๐“๐“Š–!

vermillon wrote:
PS: any idea which book would cover prefixes/suffixes in Egyptian? Gardiner? That would make our quests more interesting!

Sorry, I have no clue. :-( But do check out the Lorprieno book in the resources list if you ever want to bring some big linguistic guns to bear. It's an amazingly cool book.

I think we should totally do some more of these "quests." But in keeping with our generally lazy and chaotic team spirit, we should clearly avoid planning or organizing anything. So here's my proposal: If any of us runs into some cool hieroglyphs that look translatable, we should just go ahead and post them. :-)

Edited by emk on 31 December 2013 at 10:38pm

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Zireael
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 Message 19 of 43
31 December 2013 at 11:07pm | IP Logged 
Quote:
Interestingly for me, I first assumed from emk's post that "m" would be a kind of "passive"/"agent" marker, because in Arabic it works like this: Hmd is a root carrying the idea of "blessing" and "mHmd "(MuHamad) means the one which is blessed. Also interestingly, in Arabic "seal" is ุฎุชู… which, using the Egyptian transliteration, is exactly "xmt". Not to say that this is bullet-proof, but I am sure there is help to be gained from exploring a bit the dictionary for other Semitic languages (ok, Egyptian is not one).


A borrowing from Middle Egyptian into Arabic? O_o
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vermillon
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 Message 20 of 43
01 January 2014 at 12:21am | IP Logged 
That's not what I was implying. In this instance, I don't know, but in any way, the two languages belong to the Afroasiatic family, so they're likely to have similarity. It may simply be cognates. Since there is apparently no consensus about the reconstruction of the parent of Egyptian and Arabic, it is difficult to say.

emk wrote:
Sorry, I have no clue. :-( But do check out the Lorprieno book in the resources list if you ever want to bring some big linguistic guns to bear. It's an amazingly cool book.


I've considered buying it. Better would be to have a German equivalent, of course. Unfortunately, despite referencing countless works in German, Assimil doesn't seem to reference anything that you can actually buy, only stuff that's been sitting in university libraries for half a century. But if I find enough time for more reading, this book has definitely retained my attention.

emk wrote:
I think we should totally do some more of these "quests." But in keeping with our generally lazy and chaotic team spirit, we should clearly avoid planning or organizing anything. So here's my proposal: If any of us runs into some cool hieroglyphs that look translatable, we should just go ahead and post them. :-)


We should definitely do more quests. I'm sure that once I get back on track and as we go through the course, we can tackle more difficult stuff! (that's exciting) Not sure I'll be the person to initiate them, however: my contact with Egyptian is probably going to be pretty much restricted to this thread and Assimil..
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emk
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 Message 21 of 43
01 January 2014 at 3:49am | IP Logged 
Zireael wrote:
A borrowing from Middle Egyptian into Arabic? O_o

To give you an idea of the linguistic relationship between Middle Egyptian and its Afroasiatic siblingsโ€”and of what's relatively unique about Egyptianโ€”let me quote from the epilogue of Loprieno's book:

Quote:
On the morphological side, Ancient Egyptian exhibits a high number of features common to other Afroasiatic, and particularly Semitic languages, especially in the domain of nominal morphology: feminine and plural patterns, pronouns, some numerals. But it also shows a substantial degree of autonomy in the area of verbal forms, which are not easily interpretable within a traditional genealogical model. How should the language historian deal with this variety of forms and patterns? Is Egyptian more archaic or more innovative than the related languages? How related to each other are the Afroasiatic languages after all? It is not surprising, therefore, that Egpytological linguists have rediscovered morphology, which had been somewhat neglected in the second part of this century in the wake of the "Polotskyan revolution" that prompted an increased attention to the structurally more promising domain of syntax.

To the modern linguist, syntax and its extensions, such as typology or pragmatics, still represent in fact the most challenging aspect of Ancient Egyptian. On the one hand, the language displays a rigid sentence structure with a rather limited number of basic nominal, adverbial, and verbal patterns; on the other hand, it also licenses, as we saw, an extremely wide array of syntactic conversion (or "transformation," depending on the linguistic obedience) or embedding (or "subordination") and a frequent recourse to pragmatic movements of topicalization (or thematization) or focalization (or rhematization).

In short, not only do we get to play with hieroglyphs, we also get to chew on some delightfully strange grammar. :-)

vermillon wrote:
We should definitely do more quests. I'm sure that once I get back on track and as we go through the course, we can tackle more difficult stuff! (that's exciting) Not sure I'll be the person to initiate them, however: my contact with Egyptian is probably going to be pretty much restricted to this thread and Assimil..

I'm sure the rest of us can find some challenges. :-)

For those who missed out on the Stargate fun, here's another challenge to keep you busy.

New Year's Challenge II: Amon de Ramsรจs II

This time, let's try some inscriptions from Karnak, courtesy of the Projet d'index global des inscriptions des temples de Karnak:


ยฉ Cnrs-Cfeetk, small excerpt used under fair use / L122-5.

If you follow the link, you can see hi-res photos and transliterations. There's some terrific material there, much of which is closely related to Assimil lesson 30. But lines 5, 6 and 7 are particularly interesting:


i*(mn:n:n)-<-C1\*C12-N36-ms*s*sw->
X8*anx-f-nb-s*(n:(b*Y1v))-nb
Aw-t*ib-nb-(ra:ra)*mi-nb

This time, we have transliterations courtesy of Cfeetk. I've taken the liberty of converting them to MdC-style transliterations for use with online dictionaries:

imn n(j) ra-ms-sw-mrj-imn
d=f anx nb snb nb
Awt-ib nb(t) mi ra ra nb

EDIT: Added line 5 for context.

This is the raw stuff, complete with artistic sign re-ordering and all those other tricks you get in formulaic inscriptions.

Since I got to do the last challenge, I'm going to wait a while before tackling this one. :-)

Edited by emk on 01 January 2014 at 12:34pm

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tarvos
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 Message 22 of 43
01 January 2014 at 11:08pm | IP Logged 
Hey guys! I only got my copy of the ร‰gyptien book yesterday, and still getting the hang
of the script. I hope that in a week's time, when I've covered the basics of the script,
I'll be able to join you for some good old-fashioned fun in Egyptian!

By the way, log's here:

Tarvos'
log

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emk
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 Message 23 of 43
02 January 2014 at 12:01am | IP Logged 
Excellent news!

I've added a link to your log and I've updated the resources list with various useful goodies from the thread.

As for the writing system, here are my current thoughts on what's worth an upfront effort:

- The uniliterals: Essential. Learn the Assimil transliteration and MdC code.
- The biliterals and triliterals: If you're using my Anki deck, you can probably leave these cards paused until you encounter the signs in Assimil.
- The common determinatives: You don't need precise recall here; just the general concept.
- Anything beyond the 200 most common signs: Learn only as needed. There's another 700 of these things, most of them rare or self-explanatory. For example: ๐“‹ธ is used with sandals. This is not worth learning except as part of the word "sandal". :-)

Also, if you use my Anki deck, you'll probably need to use search-and-replace to replace the broken "i" character with a regular "i".

It's great to have you on the team!

Edited by emk on 02 January 2014 at 12:02am

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emk
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 Message 24 of 43
04 January 2014 at 3:55pm | IP Logged 
emk wrote:

i*(mn:n:n)-<-C1\*C12-N36-ms*s*sw->
X8*anx-f-nb-s*(n:(b*Y1v))-nb
Aw-t*ib-nb-(ra:ra)*mi-nb

This time, we have transliterations courtesy of Cfeetk. I've taken the liberty of converting them to MdC-style transliterations for use with online dictionaries:

imn n(j) ra-ms-sw-mrj-imn
d=f anx nb snb nb
Awt-ib nb(t) mi ra ra nb

Taking a look at column 1, I see:

๐“‡‹๐“ ๐“ˆ– ๐“ˆ–
imn n(j)
Amon of

I'm not quite sure what this first part means, but Cfeerk titles this inscription "Amon of Ramses II", so let's go with that. The next part is fun:

๐“น๐“š๐“ฉ๐“ˆ˜๐“„Ÿ๐“‹ด๐“‡“๐“บ
ra-ms-sw-mrj-imn

This is one of the royal names of Ramases II. Acorrding to Titulature dans l'ร‰gypte antique, most Pharaohs had five names:

- Nom d'Horus (Horus name)
- Nom de Nebty (Nebty name)
- Nom d'Horus d'or (Horus of Gold name)
- Nom de Nesout-bity (Throne name, from ๐“‡“๐“๐“†ค๐“, "King of Upper and Lower Egypt")
- Nom de Sa-Rรช (Personal name, aka ๐“…ญ๐“‡ณ sA ra "Son of Ra" name)

According to Wikipedia (click on afficher), this is the sA ra name of Ramses II, one of the best-known Pharaohs. Wikipedia gives us ra msw mry imn "Ramessou Mรฉriamon", which is a great starting point.

To unravel this name, we need to know about antรฉposition honorifique, the practice of writing the names of Egyptian gods before other symbols. That takes care of the first two symbols:

๐“š๐“ฉ
ra imn
Ra Amon

Next up we have a form of the verb msi "to create, to give birth to":

๐“„Ÿ๐“‹ด๐“‡“
msw

And finally we have a participle form of mri "to love":

๐“ˆ˜
mrj

So this name does indeed look like "Ra-born, beloved of Amon".

Anybody else want to try a column? :-)

Edited by emk on 04 January 2014 at 4:01pm



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