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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Hungringo Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 3788 days ago 168 posts - 329 votes  Speaks: Hungarian*, English, Spanish Studies: French | Message 73 of 159 09 January 2014 at 7:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
The question is: what is, say, better English: a "should of" by a native or a "should have" with a mild foreign accent? In English my accent gives me away, but I can confidently claim that I speak better Spanish than 99 percent of those natives whom I met in Latin-American slums. I have a larger vocabulary, use correct grammar and even my pronunciation is better. I also venture to say that after a one-week immersion to brush up my Spanish, nobody would notice in everyday situations that I am not a native speaker. They would probably think that I am not local, but if I went e.g. to Mexico I could make them believe that I am from Spain or Argentina depending on the accent I put on. Edited by Hungringo on 09 January 2014 at 8:30pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 3899 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 74 of 159 09 January 2014 at 8:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
While I think prescriptive grammar, pronunciation, etc. often goes overboard... ...by your definition a native toddler who can't string together a three word sentence with subject, verb, and object is at a linguistic level which no adult learner can ever hope to reach. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| YnEoS Senior Member United States Joined 4054 days ago 472 posts - 893 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Russian, Cantonese, Japanese, French, Hungarian, Czech, Swedish, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish | Message 75 of 159 09 January 2014 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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At some point you really have to get more specific about what language skills you're talking about, there's no simple way of describing any type of speech as "better" in an overall sense.
In a certain sense, native speakers speaking is 100% what the most authentic form of the language is and that determines how it evolves, rather than whatever grammar rules are thought up to try and describe that speech and written down in books. But on the other hand Foreigners also contribute to how a language evolves and a bunch of foreigners traveling regularly to a major city might have more impact on the development of a language than some native speakers in an isolated far off region. So before you start arguing over weather or not a Foreigner can speaker better than a native speaker you have to lay down what exactly you mean by "better". If you mean making it impossible for anyone to tell they're not a native speaker, than obviously not. If you mean the ability to follow grammar taught in grammar books, to have a large vocabulary, and the ability to discuss many different fields in depth, then obviously a foreigner can easily surpass a native speaker with enough study . Maybe someone who's studied linguistics and/or philosophy can shed some light on the topic better. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5230 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 76 of 159 09 January 2014 at 9:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Wait a minute. There's a little nuance here. "...I speak better Spanish than 99 percent of those natives whom I met in Latin-American slums" is really saying "I speak better so-called standard Spanish..." We're not comparing apples with apples here. The real comparison would really be how well do you speak the street Spanish spoken in Latin American slums. Let's take for example a "larger" vocabulary. I'm assuming that this means that you can speak about subjects that are not in the realm of our slum inhabitants. You've read more books, traveled more widely, and above all, are more educated. But what about being able to use the slang that the slum-dwellers use in their own universe? How well do you know that? As for correct grammar, what this really says is standard school grammar. Our slum-dwellers use a lot of non-standard forms. That's not the same thing as incorrect. For example, when you go to Argentina, you will hear people using vos instead of tú and associated verb forms that make up the voseo. This is never taught in Spanish classes around the world. Should one automatically assume that Argentinians speak bad Spanish? As for better pronunciation, the comparison here is even shakier. In many Latin American countries such as Cuba and Chile the final -s is dropped. Or entire words can be contracted, as in pa for para, as in voy pa'allá. Is the European Spanish ceceo better than the Latin American seseo? What one can truly say is "I speak better (European) standard Spanish than that of 99% of those natives of Latin American slums." But why compare with natives of slums? Let's compare the speech of our foreigner with that of Latin American university graduates of comparable age and class background. I'm sure that's a different story. Really, it would hardly come to my mind to say that I speak better English than the natives of 99% of American or British slums. I certainly don't speak like them, but I wouldn't necessary call my speech better. 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| culebrilla Senior Member United States Joined 3797 days ago 246 posts - 436 votes Speaks: Spanish | Message 77 of 159 09 January 2014 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
If you haven't run a 4:30 mile by age 20 and have run 60 miles per week with quality workouts (repeats, tempo runs, and intervals), I would feel VERY comfortable with betting a lot of money that you would never run a 4:00 mile, which is 18 seconds slower than the world record of 3:43. Running is extremely genetic. Why are some people a lot better than others in sports when nobody ever had any training? In sixth grade almost everybody was skinny in school. But some did the mile in 10 minutes, 8 minutes, or even 6 minutes. Why? Hmm. Only ONE white man has ever broken 10 seconds for the 100m dash. Ever. (He is a French guy who is about top 10 in the world) Usain Bolt, a Jamaican man, has the world record at 9.58. Why? A lot of people like sprinting. I myself like to sprint. Unlike many people though, I suck at it. Track and Field heavily selects for certain body types. If you are a 5'5" man, I would bet almost anything that you would never sniff even the olympic trials for the high jump or the 110m high hurdles. Go to a modest D1 meet in college and you'll see what I mean. There are strategies you can use to be better. I.E, doing drills and quality runs. (tempos, repeats, and intervals) However, if you don't have the engine the car won't go. I'm three, repeat, THREE minutes faster than my friend at the 5K and I eat fried chicken, don't sleep, don't do workouts, run less than he does per week, we've run the same number of miles in our lifetimes, and as long as I'm not super fat I'll destroy him. Why? A lot more athletic. Similarly, there is an East African in our city and within a year of modest 40 miles per week training he was already faster. Genes, man. Good, good, genes. There aren't secrets in distance running. Get a base of 60-100 miles per week then do three workouts a week. Taper for meets. Everybody can do the training. Not everybody can run sub 50 seconds for the 400m, sub 1:55 for the half mile, or break 4 minutes for the mile. Edit: For basketball, are you 5'10" tall or shorter? If your vertical leap is something like 20 inches as an adult and you are not obese but in shape, I would also bet a LOT of money that you would never dunk a full-sized basketball on a 10 foot hoop. You can improve your vertical leap with specific exercises, but nothing like 20 to 40 inches. Edited by culebrilla on 09 January 2014 at 9:43pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| culebrilla Senior Member United States Joined 3797 days ago 246 posts - 436 votes Speaks: Spanish | Message 78 of 159 09 January 2014 at 9:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I highly doubt that claim in Spanish. You learned Spanish as an adult, right? There are only about two adult learners that have such a flawless accent in Spanish: the American speaking Argentine Spanish on youtube and this other guy that I don't remember. People can tell that even Luca is not a native speaker. Myself, I noticed a few slight mistakes when he spoke in one of his Spanish videos. Nothing wrong with that; he is great in his languages. But very, very, few foreigners can ever have an accent like a native speaker if they've learned it as an adult. Or a grammatical error or, especially, a mistake with a preposition give him/her away. In regards to having better pronunciation than uneducated native speakers, I also doubt that heavily. Different countries have their own ways of pronouncing words. You may very well have a wider vocabulary and better control of grammar (no, "la tele no está trabjando.") but not pronunciation or accent. Also, one week is nothing. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Hungringo Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 3788 days ago 168 posts - 329 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, English, Spanish Studies: French | Message 79 of 159 09 January 2014 at 9:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Please note, I don't want to show off and make unsubstantiated claims, but as I have written above I can pretend to be a native Spanish speaker. I am well aware of my shortcomings in academic Spanish and very formal social registers and certain professional jargons, but I spent prolongued periods in Spanish-speaking countries and very often nobody noticed that I wasn't a native speaker. Sometimes in Latin-America I was asked if I was from Spain and Spaniards in the UK often mistake me for a Latin-American. If I lived with someone 24/7 or in a workplace sooner or later I would be caught out, but certainly not by a shopkeeper, an office-clerk or a random passer-by. On the other hand I never could pretend to be an Englishman, because English sounds are so alien to me, that even after several years of practice it's enough to open my mouth and everybody knows that I am a foreigner. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Guests Guest Group Joined 7176 days ago 0 - 22 votes Logged on | Message 80 of 159 09 January 2014 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, this is essentially what I'm claiming. To be fair, It's probably not until a child is in their early teens that they can speak better than most advanced learners, but yes, by 3 the child is beginning to understand the language in a way that no learner ever will.
Claiming to speak better than a native is already a huge claim. Do you really think you have better pronunciation than a native speaker? How is that possible?
By better, I mean better. They speak the thing they speak better than anybody else. What is an L2 learner doing anyway? They're imitating the L1 speaker. I'm surprised there's so much opposition to my claim. I thought this was a basic linguistic fact. It seems like linguistic prejudice is getting in the way here. I agree very much with s_allard. |
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