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A Rashi Decision: Learning Ladino | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Crush Tetraglot Senior Member ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5646 days ago 1622 posts - 2299 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Esperanto Studies: Basque | Message 33 of 85 01 February 2014 at 6:08am | IP Logged | ||
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Sim pode ser, é já uma realidade!
It's interesting to see how transparent those texts are for someone with a little Spanish knowledge. It actually seems like the spelling reflects how an English-speaker might transliterate a Spanish text they heard. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5043 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 34 of 85 01 February 2014 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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The transliteration came about after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and Kemal Attaturk switching Turkish writing from the Arabic script to the Latin alphabet. Though there had been a gradual move towards using the Latin alphabet in the mid 19th century due to the influence of the AIU (Alliance Israelite Universelle) schools teaching. Ladino was written in Rashi and Solitreo script for generations, not the Latin alphabet. There is no way to use accent marks or the ñ in Hebrew script. When the switch came about, Ladino speakers had been separated from Spain and Portugal for 400 years.
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| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 4947 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 35 of 85 03 February 2014 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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Mirandese seems quite transparent, some words even more than galego.
I don't know how it is actually spoken, but if I read it out loud it sounds a lot like old ladies from rural countrysides of Minas Gerais, that is, lots of palatalizations. In some Minas Gerais accent, 'medo' may sound almost like 'miedo' in an emphatic speech, while 'mesmo' sounds like 'miêss". 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5043 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 36 of 85 03 February 2014 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | ||
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This weekend I have watched half of a play, a comedy, in Ladino from Israel- La primavera and will watch the second half when I get time La primavera parte 2. I continue with my lessons in Beginner's Ladino (lesson 5) and Manual of Judeo-Spanish (lesson 2). Of the two coursebooks both have audio. The Manual of Judeo-Spanish is the most thorough of the two. It has more of an emphasis on the grammar, structure, use of native text and idioms (each lesson is about 40 pages long) of the language than Beginner's Ladino which is more about simple conversation and vocabulary. They complement each other well, but if I had to choose between the two, I'd go with the Manual of Judeo-Spanish.
For those of you who speak Spanish, I watched El último sefardí a Spanish documentary featuring the story of Ladino and the Sephardim diaspora and Eliezer Papo, a young (under 50) Ladino speaker from Sarajevo teaching Ladino at Ben Gurion University in Israel. The video has scenes of speakers, speaking Ladino (with Spanish subtitles when needed) in the Mediterranean diaspora from Turkey to Bosnia, Israel and Greece. I continue to make my way through the Rashi script of El princhipiko. If anyone can point me to a way to type the Rashi font, I would appreciate it. I need a virtual keyboard for Rashi. Unfortunately "LadinoType" saves the script as individual images which can't be rendered to fonts for copying and pasting. 
Adyo Edited by iguanamon on 04 February 2014 at 1:56am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5043 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 37 of 85 08 February 2014 at 2:05am | IP Logged | ||
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I have almost all my materials now for my Ladino adventure. I am working with two courses "Beginner's Ladino" and "Manual of Judeo-Spanish". Of the two, the "Manual of Judeo-Spanish" is the most thorough and most in-depth. Still they're both useful to me, I see words in one then in the other.
I am reading "El Princhipiko" in Rashi. The Rashi script is getting a little easier to read but it's still a bear. If I loose my place in a physical book, it takes me a while longer than in Latin script to find it again.The reading is probably 90% slower than with the Latin characters. A Jewish Voice from Ottoman Salonica arrived yesterday. It has bilingual English/Ladino (transliterated Latin characters) but not parallel text. The English comes first followed by the Ladino. Unfortunately all the footnotes are in English only. This memoir is an interesting look at a bygone time and place when the city of Salonika, Greece had a majority Jewish population and the majority language was Judeo-espanyol/Ladino. It is a rare first hand memoir originally written in Solitreo- Ladino cursive handwriting by the author in the later part of the 19th century and early 20th century. &n bsp; 
At the time of writing this earliest known Ladino memoir, Salonika was one of the three largest cities in the Turkish Ottoman Empire. The ethnic mix included Ladino-speaking Sephardim, Turkish Muslims, Greek Christians and Greek Jews. The memoirist has an axe to grind as he is basically writing a defense of his modernizing actions and criticizing his treatment at the hands of the fundamentalist Rabbis who ran Jewish life in Salonika. If anyone is interested there's an mp3 interview with the authors about the book project at Tablet Magazine. The book has great footnotes and includes a glossary. There are a lot of Turkish and Hebrew words that I can't decipher on first glance, although when I figure out the meaning in context it's a bit of a charge to confirm that my guess was correct.
kaik is from Turkish and means "a small boat- almost equivalent to a dinghy". maggi'a comes from Hebrew and means "touches, is involved" "a contact man" The glossary has 56 pages of words from Turkish, Arabic, Greek and Hebrew. The companion website to the book has all the pages from the original Solitreo manuscript found lost and forgotten in an Israeli library. This will help me to decode Solitreo script. I'm enjoying this first hand look into a lost culture and time. The book would be so much more useful if it were a parallel text, but as it is- it's an amazing resource for Ladino studyfrom both a language-learning and cultural perspective. My Ladino/English dictionary arrived but, in true Ladino form, it has a different orthography from "El princhipiko". The dictionary is quite thorough though, it has example sentences and even a section of proverbs with explanatory glosses. I am listening to the news in Ladino from the IBA everyday. I also listen to the lessons from "Manual of Judeo-Spanish" which is native speed. The audio on "Beginner's Ladino" is painfully slow. I've downloaded two play-scripts and have found two plays in Ladino to watch on youtube, also downloaded and converted to mp3. This is a fun side project. I'm learning two new (almost three- because of Hebrew) scripts in Rashi and Solitreo. Ladino is leading me to learn so much more than just a language, I'm learning about the Sephardic Ladino culture and Judaism as well. I knew little about either before. Munchas grasias por meldar i agora, adyo- It's time to watch "Mandrake" in Portuguese. Edited by iguanamon on 09 February 2014 at 5:47am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 5842 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 38 of 85 10 February 2014 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | ||
Mirandese is uncanny. In some aspects, it's very foreign and exotic (these "L" articles), and in some ways it's putting to writing Northern accents: I know people that actually say "bariaçon" and "bariadades" when speaking Portuguese. They would write "variação" and "variedades", but their accent would be closer to Mirandese. Iguanamon, I'd say I'm sorry for being off-topic, but I know you love this kind of stuff. ;) 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4420 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 39 of 85 14 February 2014 at 11:51am | IP Logged | ||
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iguanamon, just wanted to draw your attention to this article in El País. Apparently the Spanish government has decided to offer Spanish citizenship to all descendants of Jews who were sent out of the country in 1492, and the interest seems to be enormous. Interesting to see that amongst the criteria for verifying that someone is a true sefarad are amongst others "los apellidos del interesado" y "el idioma familiar", en referencia al castellano medieval conocido como ladino.
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| geoffw Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4469 days ago 1134 posts - 1865 votes Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian | Message 40 of 85 18 February 2014 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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I read about it here recently. My Spanish is
weak, but I think this article is a bit more up to date, at least. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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