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A Rashi Decision: Learning Ladino

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Expugnator
Hexaglot
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Brazil
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3335 posts - 4349 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento
Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian

 
 Message 65 of 85
16 October 2014 at 9:50pm | IP Logged 
That's good news, iguanamon! Enjoy the new resources!
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Expugnator
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Brazil
Joined 4926 days ago

3335 posts - 4349 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento
Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian

 
 Message 66 of 85
02 December 2014 at 3:01pm | IP Logged 
Dê uma olhada neste artigo, iguanamon:

Leitura: abrir o dicionário ou deduzir pelo contexto?
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Ogrim
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France
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Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian
Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian

 
 Message 67 of 85
02 December 2014 at 4:45pm | IP Logged 
iguanamon wrote:
I just found out, via @SarahAroeste on twitter about a new translation of Alice in Wonderland Las Aventuras de Alisia en el Paiz de las Maraviyas by Avner Perez. Wow! With early 20th century newspapers in Rashi script to read and now this, it looks like I will be having a lot of fun with Ladino.

To all, I just can't keep up with writing a log. Maybe I might consolidate everything in one place like other members do. Still, I want this log to be a reference for anyone who may wish to start to learn Ladino in the future, you never know, someone might.

Just bought the book at Amazon.


I had a look at the page you linked to and now I really want to have this book as well! However, on Amazon.fr they say that the book will be delivered in one to three months. I can understand that Amazon does not have loads of this book in stock, but having to wait three months seems a bit over the top in this modern day and age. Anyway, I might just order it, and then forget about it until one day in spring it appears in my letter box.

I really enjoy this log - although I have no time to do any serious study of Ladino right now, it is fun to see how much I can understand when reading a few pages of it. However, I never got around to learning Rashi script, so I have to stick to what's published in the Latin alphabet.

Edit: I think the reference to months on Amazon.fr must be a mistake. On Amazon.co.uk it says 1 to 3 weeks, which seems more logical.

Edited by Ogrim on 02 December 2014 at 5:53pm

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iguanamon
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Virgin Islands
Speaks: Ladino
Joined 5022 days ago

2237 posts - 6731 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French)

 
 Message 68 of 85
02 December 2014 at 6:45pm | IP Logged 
I've been reading a few pages here and there and I can tell you that the translation is good. I plan to really get into it soon over the holidays. Ladino gives a wonderful introduction to Turkish, Hebrew, Arabic and Greek vocabulary along with old Castillian.

Avner Perez, the book's translator, is a writer and poet in djudeo-espanyol and director of el Instituto Maale Adumim in Israel. There's just so little available in the way of novels in a modern translation. Someone should really translate Art Spiegelman's "Maus" into Ladino or "Le Chat du Rabbin". These graphic novels seem like a natural for translation.

Stanford University has a few free Ladino downloads of original literature Hasan Pasha el Terivle. This is a good story that gives a window into the time of the Ottoman Empire and a play: Dreyfus- Drama en sinko aktos. Modern literature is much, much harder to come by.

By the way, I very much enjoy reading your Romansh log, Ogrim. Surprisingly, I can make out quite a bit of it without the translation due to my languages' help.

I've eliminated TAC from this log's title. I don't want to "totally annihilate" anything. With Ladino, I just want to get used to it and learn what I can as I go. It would be wonderful if Israel would give the same support to Ladino that Switzerland gives to Romansh.

Edited by iguanamon on 03 December 2014 at 2:07am

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iguanamon
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Virgin Islands
Speaks: Ladino
Joined 5022 days ago

2237 posts - 6731 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French)

 
 Message 69 of 85
02 December 2014 at 10:41pm | IP Logged 
Valeu, Expug, pelo link ao artigo. Já li. Eu faço as duas opções. Graças ao meu kindle com seu dicionário integrado, facilita as consultas no dicionário. Enquanto ao artigo, primeiro, sempre tento deduzir uma palavra desconhecida pelo contexto. Segundo, si não seja bastante obvio, consulto o dicionário para confirmar minha dedução. É mais fácil fazê-lo nos meus idiomas devido à similaridade dos meus outros idiomas, sabe. Por exemplo-
O titulo de capítulo um de Alisia en el paiz de las maraviyas wrote:
Abasho por el burako del taushan

A única palavra que era desconhecida foi "taushan". Taushan quer dizer "coelho". É uma palavra emprestada do idioma turco. Algo interessante, "buraco" existe en espanhol, mas, não é muito comum, salvo no cono sul. É graças ao português que posso entender facilmente "abasho" e "burako" no ladino.

Infelizmente, não tem um dicionário do ladino disponível para meu kindle. Tenho que buscar no internet ou, dar uma olhada no original em inglês. Também, tenho dicionários em pdf e um em papel. Quando leio em Rashi, é mais difícil porque tenho que transliterar o texto ao alfabeto latim e tem varias opções. Tampouco há um dicionário no crioulo haitiano no kindle, nem tenho um dicionário em papel para consultar. Tenho quatro deles em pdf, por isso, leio em crioulo haitiano no meu tablete.

Geralmente posso deduzir a palavra desconhecida a maioria de vezes, mas sempre é bom confirmá-la. Cometo erros e, às vezes acho que tenho certeza quando na realidade não sabia. Pelo menos, graças ao meu idioma nativo e os meus outros idiomas, tenho chance. Imagino que no georgiano, o chinês e o russo seria mais difícil, ou melhor dito, quase impossível. Por isso, te admiro tanto.

Alisia en el paiz de las maraviyas wrote:
“En akeya direksion,” disho el Gato, moviendo su pacha derecha, “bive un Bonetero, i en akeya direksion,” moviendo la otra pacha, “bive un Lievre de Marso. Vijita al ken keres: los dos estan lokos.”

“Ama yo no kero estar entre djente loka,” mensiono Alisia.

“Oh, esto no lo puedes evitar,” disho el Gato: “todos estamos lokos aki. Yo esto loko. Tu estas loka.”

“Komo saves ke yo esto loka?” disho Alisia.

“Deves estarlo,” disho el Gato, “o no avrias venido aki.”


Edited by iguanamon on 18 August 2015 at 12:25am

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Luso
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Portugal
Joined 5821 days ago

819 posts - 1812 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical)

 
 Message 70 of 85
02 December 2014 at 11:24pm | IP Logged 
iguanamon wrote:
I've eliminated TAC from this log's title. I don't want to "totally annihilate" anything. With Ladino, I just want to get used to it and learn what I can as I go. It would be wonderful if Israel would give the same support to Ladino that Switzerland gives to Romansh.

... or Portugal to Mirandese.

Regarding not wanting to "totally annihilate anything", I couldn't agree more. Maybe it's a coincidence, but I just want to enjoy the learning process. Or maybe it's wisdom - finally - setting in. ;)

Regarding loanwords: The other day, I went to my Sanskrit teacher's Hindi class. There was a one-page text, in which I discovered 5 Arabic words. I don't know Farsi, but I'm sure that there was a handful of those, too. Not to mention Sanskrit, of course.

I already knew that there would be Farsi loanwords, but I didn't expect so many Arabic ones, least of all in an A1 text.

P.S.: Your written Portuguese is really good. Not that it comes as a surprise, though.
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iguanamon
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Virgin Islands
Speaks: Ladino
Joined 5022 days ago

2237 posts - 6731 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French)

 
 Message 71 of 85
13 December 2014 at 6:48pm | IP Logged 
Un kuento sefaradi-
El Vendedor de Meoyo

Kontado por Itshak Haleva, 1984 del livro De Saragosa a Yerushalayim– Kuentos Sefaradis de Matilda Koen-Sarano

Avia de ser un buen djudio ke se mantenia de un ufisio muy estranyo. Saliendo de su kaza, a la manyana, el uzava pregonar, a boz alta:
-Vendo meoyo!... Vendo meoyo!...
Los ke lo konosian no le aboltavan kara i lo deshavan pasar, gritando todo el tiempo “Vendo meoyo”!... Ken tiene menester de meoyo!...”, ma un dia lo oyo Yosefachi, un mansevo un poko bovo, ke siempre sufria al oyir su madre, i mizmo sus amigos i vizinos, dizirle en un tono de burla: “Ke estas aziendo?! No tienes meoyo?!”
Aserkandose del vendedor de meoyo vido ke tenia un tavlero sovrel kual estavan aregladas unas diez kavesas de pishkado.
-Kualo es esto? – demando Yosefachi.
-Aki tienes - respondio el vendedor – kavesas de peshkado de ekselente kalidad. Toma dos al dia, por diez groshes solo, i veras komo en manko de nada seras muncho mas intelijente.
Yosefachi pago sinkuenta groshes, asigurandose ke el vendedor le va trayer kada manyana, durante sinko dias, dos kavesas de peshkado bien freskas i se las komio, sigun las intruksiones ke resivio: una la manyana i la otra a tadre.
Ma, sigun podemos entenderlo, a la fin de los sinko dias Yosefachi no konsiente ningun trokamiento i, kuando enkontra al vendedor, le dize kon ravia:
-Me enganyates! Komo pudi kreer ke komer kavesas de peshkado azen la persona mas intelijente!
-Ke estas avlando? – responde el vendedor - No ves ke agora estas mas intelijente ke sinko dias atras!

Mi traduksion al inglez

The Brain Seller

There once was a good Jew who made his living in a strange way. Upon leaving his house in the morning he used to chant in a loud voice:
-Selling brains!...Selling brains!...
Those who knew him didn't turn their faces toward him and let him pass by, shouting the whole time "Selling brains"!... Who needs brains!...", but one day Yosefachi heard him, a young man who was a little dimwitted, he was always suffering hearing his mother, and even his friends and neighbors, saying to him in a mocking tone: "What are you doing? Don't you have a brain? (or meoyo can also mean "sense" or "reason")"
Approaching the brain seller he saw that he had a table upon which he had arranged ten fish heads.
-What is this? -asked Yosefachi
-Here you have -answered the merchant -fish heads of excellent quality. Take two a day, for only ten groshes (grosh: a Turkish coin) and you'll see how in no time at all you will be much smarter.
Yosefachi paid fifty groshes, making sure that the merchant would bring him every morning, for five days, two of the freshest fish heads and he would eat them following the instructions he received: one in the morning and the other one in the afternoon.
But, as we can see, at the end of five days Yosefachi wasn't conscious (aware) of any change at all and, when he found the merchant, he said to him angrily:
-You tricked me! How could I believe that eating fish heads makes a person smarter!
-What are you talking about? -the merchant answered- Don't you see that you are smarter now than you were five days ago!...

Edited by iguanamon on 14 December 2014 at 4:12am

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iguanamon
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Virgin Islands
Speaks: Ladino
Joined 5022 days ago

2237 posts - 6731 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French)

 
 Message 72 of 85
17 December 2014 at 12:43am | IP Logged 
Buenos haberes para kontar! Komo esto ainda ambezando el djudeo-espanyol, akavo de merkar el dvd del filmo "Salvado por el idioma" (echo por Susanna Zarayasky). Es una estorya de uno de los ultimos kuatros djudios ke avlan ladino en Saray. El ombre fue un ninyo de treze anyos kuando teniya su vida salvada por kavza de avlar ladino kon soldados Italianos i ispano-amerikanos durante la segunda gerra mundial en Evropa. artikolo en eSefarad (en espanyol) i Saved by Language documentary home page (en inglez) ande se puede ver un video kurto sovre el filmo i se puede meldar mas.

byervos (palabras) del vokabulario
haber(es)- news, noticias (from Turkish "haber")
ainda - aun, todavía
ambezar - to learn; aprender
akavar - acabar
merkar - comprar
djudio - judío
kavza - causa
avlar - hablar
Evropa - Europa
Saray - Sarajevo
kurto - corto
meldar - to read, leer (old Spanish)

Edited by iguanamon on 17 December 2014 at 3:25am



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