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Why is there so little research? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4315 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes  Studies: German | Message 41 of 81 04 February 2014 at 10:05pm | IP Logged | ||
But that's somewhat different too. There is good evidence from the study of skill acquisition that starting earlier is advantageous for future professional musicians precisely because number of hours of practice is the critical variable in determining performance. But perhaps that's setting the bar too high? The studies with musicians are looking at a very select and competitive group of people, who must study for decades to get to the top of their profession (tens of thousands of hours). C2 language performance may actually require far less hours than a group of musicians. If it takes 10-20 years of study to get to C2 (I think probably less) then starting at 20 or 30 or 40 or even 50 years old seems quite OK. Anyway I don't get the impression we have any substantive points of disagreement. Edited by patrickwilken on 04 February 2014 at 10:07pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5212 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 42 of 81 04 February 2014 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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I agree that there isn't substantial disagreement. And remember, I don't believe in the critical period hypothesis. I
do believe in starting early, whatever the skill, because the learning conditions are often much better than later in life Edited by s_allard on 04 February 2014 at 11:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4404 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 43 of 81 05 February 2014 at 12:06am | IP Logged | ||
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Sure, I'm not going to argue against starting early. No time like the present as they say. But I still think you
can master a language in later life. The football (soccer) legend Pele knew no English until he joined New York Cosmos in his mid-30s. Now he conducts speeches and gives formal presentations in English. And he's a guy who had little formal education. Anyone can do it, if they have the will. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6691 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 44 of 81 05 February 2014 at 12:25am | IP Logged | ||
After two years on the instrument (at 30 years of age) I probably was the lousiest violin player in the local orchestra from the day I joined until the day I left (but hey, someone had to fill that spot too!). However, I've played in other musical constellations where I've surpassed experienced/advanced members in no-time (despite playing a new instrument), and where people who joined at the same time remained on square one for years. I've played with far too many people where the amount of years were of minor importance. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4226 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 45 of 81 05 February 2014 at 5:09am | IP Logged | ||
Personally I picked up playing the violin not at age 5 but more like 15 during my high school years. The main advantage for starting early is that you can easily train your hand muscles to reach for awkward positions. I picked up playing keyboard piano even later at age 35. To be a concert pianist they recommend that you start early for the same reason to train your hands to become stronger so you can play loud passages with impact. Besides that there is a more practical issue to consider: time. When you are young you simply give up the time you would be watching TV or play video games to practice music. However, in high school your homework starts piling up and some may have taken up a P/T job to gain work experience or to pay for personal expenses. The # hours per week you can practice decrease substantially. However... Learning to play an instrument like a piano isn't about learning Classical music and going through conservatory level exams. I've come across many people who aren't trained in Classical music. Some don't even now how to read notations on paper. In front of a piano they can play many tunes with the right hand playing a melody and the left playing chords for accompaniment and improvising by adding their own thing along the way. Not everybody has to end up in a concert hall playing a Beethoven or Tchaikovsky concerto or even be in an orchestra. You can also get into Jazz, folk tunes or Pop music. Some people learned enough to play hymns in their local churches. You don't have to be playing even Chopin to pick up piano as a hobby. Regarding learning languages, I came across videos on YouTube by Steve Kaufmann the polyglot. He started acquiring languages later in life. Younger people tend to pick up local accents more easily but there is not a lot of evidence that show older adults cannot learn. Like Steve mentioned the lack of time is a major concern (taking your kids to school and extracurricular activities, shopping for the family, work, etc). Can people learn music at an older age? Depends on the type of music and how far they want to go, also how well they train their ears to pick up melodies... not reading notations like a person reading text off a piece of paper when giving a speech. What about languages? Moses McCormick didn't pick up all the half-dozen languages he claimed to be able to speak at age 5. He basically taught himself later in life. Edited by shk00design on 05 February 2014 at 5:33am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5212 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 46 of 81 05 February 2014 at 6:08am | IP Logged | ||
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I hope that nobody believes that I said that adults cannot learn languages well. I don't even think we have to
discuss that point here at HTLAL. What seems to be a point of contention is the importance of early exposure to a foreign language. I see three positions: 1. There is no neurological or cognitive foundation for the belief that there is a "window of opportune language learning" from age 5 to 15. Therefore, adults can learn as well as children. Learning between 20 and 30 is no different from ages 5 to 15. The only advantage of starting early is to have a head start in terms of cumulative hours. 2. There exists a critical period of neurological activity for language acquisition, especially phonology, between ages 5 and 15. After that period, language acquisition becomes more difficult. 3. Although it may not founded in biology or neurology, the childhood period of 5-15 lends itself particularly well to language learning because the learning conditions for language are optimal. For very different reasons, everybody can agree that it is best to learn at an early age. I ask the same question as before: Is there anybody here who believes that it is better to start a language at a later age rather than earlier? As for all those musicians who took up the instrument late in life, I wonder how many regret not having started earlier. As for polyglots like Steve Kaufman, listen to him talking about his learning of French and Chinese, among his best languages. He learned them when he was young, not necessarily as a child. As for Moses McCormick, he should be congratulated of course, but one has to admit that his level of proficiency in the languages I'm familiar with leaves a lot to be desired. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5212 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 47 of 81 05 February 2014 at 6:56am | IP Logged | ||
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To come back to the OP and the subject of the lack of research, I think we could turn the question around and ask
why there is so little research coming from the publishers of all these self-learning methods. We've never heard of anything about the science behind Assimil, Fluenz, Transparent, Michel Thomas, etc. The only one that seems to have some scientific credentials is the Pimsleur method associated with the late Paul Pimsleur. Despite his reputations as a revolutionary in the field of self-learning, the only publication I could find was a recent reprint of his 160 page book How to learn an foreign language. Rosetta Stone seems to employ a team of real linguists but I'm not sure what they do exactly. Do any of these firms do any kind of real research into the effectiveness of their products? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6987 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 48 of 81 05 February 2014 at 7:04am | IP Logged | ||
This goes for performance in the workplace as well. I've worked with people who said, "I've been doing [professional title] for 20 years", and I think to myself, I was better at doing that after 1 year of study than you are now. What's the difference? 1) Apptitude 2) Application Apptitude is a harder needle to move on the dial, but Application just means pushing yourself to learn things you wouldn't otherwise pickup "doing the job". In language learning, I think the same things come into play. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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