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Article: Students fall short on Vocabulary

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s_allard
Triglot
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 Message 153 of 319
20 April 2014 at 6:31am | IP Logged 
patrickwilken wrote:
...
Individual Oral Exam (ca. 15 minutes)

In the speaking module, you make it clear you are able to freely and extensively speak as well as effortlessly take
part in a discussion and, at the same time, use idiomatic expressions and differentiate finer linguistic nuances.
You are given 15 minutes to prepare and structure your presentation on the topic you choose.

Sure, grammar is important. Did anyone say otherwise? But I find it ridiculous to think you could go into one of
these exams vocab-lite, especially since size of vocabulary has been shown to to account for about 70% of the
variance in written comprehension tests and about 50% in spoken tests.

Sorry to be slightly out of sync here. It took some time before I was able to track down the website. I know the
topic is becoming a tad tiresome but I want to respond to this particular post about what the requirements for
the German C2 oral exam.

A first comment. Note that the description for the exam does not mention accent or vocabulary at all. I raise the
issue of accent because, like vocabulary, the underlying assumption in all of these tests is that the candidate has
a good accent and a good vocabulary. This, of course, begs the next question: what is good accent or good
vocabulary?

Since the exam descriptor does not indicate any specific vocabulary size, we are left to guesstimating the
required receptive and productive vocabulary sizes. What we do know is that we likely won't use more than 1500
word-families. I think that the figures we see around here are mere conjecture and based on the
belief that it is impossible to communicate effectively with a relatively small vocabulary.

Although the exam description does not mention accent or vocabulary, it does refer explicitly to idiomatic
expressions. This is interesting because most idiomatic expressions use common words to create a second level
of meaning that is not easily derived from the primary meanings of the words.

The reference to idioms is included here because use of idioms is an important indicator of ability to use the
language in creative ways. This is whether the advanced speaker shines. Does use of idioms require more words?
Certainly not. It requires great skill in the use of very common words. When I hear "get the hang of" or "get to the
bottom of" I usually know that I'm dealing with a knowledgeable speaker.

The exam description also speaks of the ability to "differentiate finer linguistic nuances". Do you need more
words to do this? I would say more words probably helps, but that's not the only way to differentiate meaning. I
think that verb tenses and derivation through affixes are very effective ways of manifesting shades of meaning.

But my point is always the same: It's basically irrelevant to measure vocabulary size for exam purposes. You
basically have to know what is necessary to pass the test. Judging from the test description, I personally believe
that fluency and grammatical precision combined with adequate vocabulary are what it takes to do well.

Edited by s_allard on 20 April 2014 at 7:10am

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s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5443 days ago

2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 154 of 319
20 April 2014 at 6:38am | IP Logged 
Jeffers wrote:
Gemuse wrote:
emk wrote:

s_allard wrote:
While boning up on my English vocabulary I came across the following
passage in the April 15 edition of the Guardian:

"He probably bragged about it in the pub and somebody will shop him and then unless he
owns his own hedge fund he's probably out of a job."

Well, that's a moderately rare usage of the word "shop", but most well-read adult
anglophones should certainly know it. Usually it shows up in newspaper reporting about
white collar crime.


Really? I've never heard of that usage.


It's pretty common in the UK. I never heard it before I moved here. But it's a pretty good example of a word
whose meaning is clear enough from the way it's used.
...

From my reading, this use of "shop" is British. I really don't think that most well-read adult North American
anglophones use this.
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s_allard
Triglot
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 Message 155 of 319
20 April 2014 at 7:08am | IP Logged 
emk wrote:
...
Anyway, the sample DALF C2 exams for French are
perfectly willing to include stuff like this. They usually include passages written in an academic style, or in a
"ridiculously literary newspaper" style. For example, I've never seen this usage of vases communicants
before. (It's a nice metaphor, but there's no obvious English equivalent.)

Quote:
Que restera-t-il à la rentrée des acquis de l’année scolaire ? Cerveau et seau de plage jouent-ils les vases
communicants ?

But DALF C2 exams may also include pure slang, and even SMS messages:
...

Now, there are ways to bluff around not knowing things like vases communicants, ce bins or trop
teubé
. (It's actually harder to bluff around issues like that on the DALF C1, because the C1 exam has a nasty
habit of asking you explain specific phrasings in the text. The C2 exam wants essay responses, so you have a
little more flexibility.)

So, basically, yeah: On the DALF C2, it's pretty much open season on relatively obscure metaphors, slang, etc.
Please note, however, that I've never studied for the DALF C2. I've passed the DELF B2 and studied for DALF C1,
but I don't have an especially good grasp on the grading standards for the C2 exam.

luke wrote:
Someone here posted some videos a while back that show things examiners should look for, such
as a person how changes the subject so they can go into a rehearsed monologue.

Yes, the DELF/DALF exams actually use two oral examiners: One who asks questions, and one who concentrates
solely on listening and taking notes. I'm told they do this because it's too hard to carefully evaluate somebody's
language quality while actually carrying on a conversation.

And the test is structured in such a way that you have to stay on topic: The DELF B2 oral presentation, for
example, is supposed to be a structured presentation with a summary of the question, a thesis, supporting
points, evidence for each supporting point, and a conclusion. (And they didn't let me use notes while presenting.)
You can't just start telling random stories unless those stories support your argument. Maybe during the Q&A
afterwards, if you're clever about making a connection to the topic.

However, this is one bit of good news on these exams: The passing score is only 50%, across the entire exam (at
least through C1). So if you're weak in one skill, or totally unprepared for one of the exam topics, you can still
make it up by being strong elsewhere.

Again, I don't want to make anybody think these exams are super-hard. They're not, thanks to the low passing
score and the use of level-appropriate expectations. But at the same time, if you want to take an advanced exam,
you almost certainly want to have a good bit of what patrickwilken mentioned as "medium frequency vocabulary"
in that 3,000 to 9,000 range. This will be most important for reading comprehension. Now, it's often possible to
bluff your way through an exam with lots of unfamiliar vocabulary. But at some point, it's nice to be able to
look at a page and know virtually all the words. And at least in a Romance language, an English speaker can
reach that point relatively pleasantly, mostly by reading, with perhaps a touch of memorization to help make the
rarer words stick.

I won't repeat my earlier arguments about vocabulary size but I want to return to this issue of the probability of
encountering rare or exotic vocabulary such as slang in the example above. Do you have to understand the slang
and the SMS messages mentioned above? Not really. But you must first see the entire picture.

If you go to the actual C2 exams, you will see that the subject is the innovative use of language by young people.
Everybody can relate to this because the same phenomenon exists in all the modern languages. You really don't
have to know what those slang items mean.

You are then asked to write a letter in which you take the viewpoint that the French language is not dying
because of bad use by young people but, instead, is simply renewing itself with youthful innovations.

This sort of exam is typical of the generic material one finds in these tests. Yes, there is a focus on a specific
subject, but the actual exam question is framed in general terms. There is no mention of required vocabulary. In
fact, you are asked simply to

".. rédigez un texte structuré dans lequel vous réagissez au point de vue adopté et présentez le vôtre, en
adoptant un style approprié et un ton engagé."

"...write a structured text in which you react to the point of view adopted and present your own, while using the
appropriate style and a strong tone."

(Sorry for the so-so translation.)

How much vocabulary do you need to write this minimum 700-word essay? I won't get into that debate right
now, but I would certainly recommend that your spelling and grammar be impeccable rather than trying to
impress with rare or exotic words surrounded by dodgy grammar.

It should be pointed out that you are allowed to use a monolingual dictionary.



Edited by s_allard on 20 April 2014 at 7:13am

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Serpent
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 Message 156 of 319
20 April 2014 at 7:40am | IP Logged 
I don't understand. You always say that people refer to the CEFR levels without taking into account what they really require. But isn't this also what you are doing? How can you ignore things like "Can understand a wide range of demanding, longer texts, and recognise implicit meaning" (C1) or especially "Can understand with ease virtually everything heard or read" (C2)? Exams can't test whether you understand things with ease, but this is still the goal of anyone who wants to reach C2. While there are undoubtedly many members who can benefit from your advice about passing exams and impressing teachers, this site is still called how to learn any language, not how-to-pass-any-cefr-exam.com.

Quote:
The exam description also speaks of the ability to "differentiate finer linguistic nuances". Do you need more words to do this? I would say more words probably helps, but that's not the only way to differentiate meaning. I think that verb tenses and derivation through affixes are very effective ways of manifesting shades of meaning.

That's not something you choose, or at least it shouldn't be. Grammar won't help you work around even pretty basic nuances like arm vs hand, let alone the more advanced things any language is full of. Speaking of that, let me stress that this depends on the language too.
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s_allard
Triglot
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Canada
Joined 5443 days ago

2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 157 of 319
20 April 2014 at 3:10pm | IP Logged 
Can you fake or cheat a CFER exam? I don't think so. Especially at the C2 level. Can you cram 10000 Anki cards into
your head in two weeks? Maybe but how will that help you write an essay? Any language examiner will tell you that
they can determine the oral proficiency of a candidate within two minutes of the beginning of the test. They can
easily see where the candidate is going by the mistakes they make.

How can you fake fluency? If you don't hesitate and can easily connect grammatically correct phrases, then you
have attained fluency. There is no way to fake this unless you are speaking gibberish. How can you cheat on
grammar? If you don't make a mistake for five minutes, you're good. And when the examiner asks you a complex
question, you can segue effortlessly into the answer. You can't cheat on this.
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Serpent
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 Message 158 of 319
20 April 2014 at 3:58pm | IP Logged 
My argument is not only about cheating though. It's mostly about the fact that fitting the exam requirements doesn't equal fitting the more general guidelines. Most people setting their goal as C2, or B1 for that matter, are not interested in passing exams. They want to be at the level as described. They want to do these things without struggling and without having to brush up/revise before actually using the language.
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s_allard
Triglot
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Canada
Joined 5443 days ago

2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 159 of 319
21 April 2014 at 3:54pm | IP Logged 
I think that most people HTLAL have no interests in language tests. It doesn't make a difference in their lives. They
are language hobbyists and enjoy playing with languages. That's fine, but there is a world out there of people for
whom passing a language test is a serious matter. Where I live there are language tests in order to immigrate to
Canada, language tests to enter school, language tests to become a member of a professional association, language
tests to get a job in government and, finally, language tests to become a Canadian citizen.

How to prepare and pass these tests is of vital importance. Knowing how the tests work and what the examiners are
looking for are basic starting points of a study strategy. In this regard, I will point out that I've never seen a test that
specifies a required vocabulary size.
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Serpent
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 Message 160 of 319
21 April 2014 at 5:49pm | IP Logged 
I'm glad you finally understand this part. What you are missing is that HTLAL'ers are not necessarily "playing" with languages - I'd argue that most of us are more serious than the people who need the language but don't have much interest in it and only learn as little as they need to.

And CEFR is useful even for those who have no interest in actually taking an exam. It has other functions, like self-assessment or choosing learning materials, and most relevantly for HTLAL - giving and getting advice. Someone who's honestly interested in improving won't claim that their level is higher than what it really is. I don't think we have all that many people making incorrect claims about their knowledge. Most of those not understanding CEFR use it for goals, like B2 in a week or C1 in two months. Experienced learners take them back down to earth quickly enough.

Also, immigrating to any country or entering a university abroad requires proving your knowledge of either the local language or English. But beyond that, most non-government companies just have their own tests that you need to pass even if you've passed some official exams already.

As for vocab size, many formal and informal tests do rely on some specific words. Of course not as the sole or main criterion, but especially for work you do need to show you have the needed vocabulary.

Edited by Serpent on 21 April 2014 at 6:01pm



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