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Learning multiple languages | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4083 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 9 of 23 22 June 2014 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
Right, it is actually both in Europe: achieve at least B2/C1 in the language, but simultaneously learn various to that level. The only exception in Europe, obviously, are the UK, because of obvious reasons, (some in the UK do not even consider the UK to be part of Europe) which I find to be a shame. But in general, I doubt that the majority in Continental Europe are satisfied with learning only one foreign language to a high level. It is like that metaphor, having one's biscuit and eating it too. If I grew up in the high-level language parts of Europe, like Belgium, Nederland, Sweden, etc., I would be unsatisfied with anything less than B2 in at least four languages. A1 is simply too low in this respect. Also even if the language education is not as solid as in these parts of Europe, the parts of Europe with smaller countries and also border four or five other countries, such as the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Austria, have very good reasons to learn the languages of their neighbours--just driving the distance from Montréal to Toronto, one can probably arrive from Praha to Bratislawa, Wien, or Ljubljana. Edited by 1e4e6 on 22 June 2014 at 8:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4802 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 10 of 23 22 June 2014 at 10:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, the UK is very often an exception :-)
What you said is and isn't true at once in my opinion. It is a bit more true about htlalers but still. Lets have a look at the general population. 1.First of all, did you mean the beginning of the last article as "the language education in CR, Slovenia, Austria etc isn't that good but..."? Why wouldn't it be as good as in the others? If I were to judge the language education by the natives I've met, it is much better in these countries than in Italy or some others. Language eucation in most european countries is better than in the UK or US, since we have two obligatory foreign languages in most schools and it is very common for kids to start early compared to UK or US. And the adults feel the pressure to impove their language skills all the time. 2.People don't primarily learn languages of their neighbours, they learn the large languages, especially when their native one is internationally useless. So, if your neighbour is Germany or Austria, German is going to be a popular language. But it doesn't apply the same way about other neighbours. Too few europeans learn smaller languages (how large % of Germans learn Dutch or Swedish?). And too few europeans with native slavic language learn another slavic language despite having neigbour country where it is spoken. A czech and a pole are too likely to use bad English together. 3. Yes, much larger % of europeans learns 2 or more languages, especially as it is usually obligatory. But that doesn't mean a wider choice of languages is being offered and studied. A usual young slovak is much more likely to learn Spanish than Polish or Hungarian. The big three (En, Fr, De) can cover most travelling and business needs. +Spanish and Italian can widen your choices significantly since they are languages of one large country each and their natives like to use it with foreigners. Edited by Cavesa on 22 June 2014 at 10:26pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 3892 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 11 of 23 22 June 2014 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
I don't doubt that but you'd be in a rather small minority, at least in Sweden. The only people I've ever known in Sweden who are at least B2 in four languages grew up in Sweden as immigrants, and several of them (since I know them) went to English-medium schools. This means that three out of their four B2+ languages came "free" (native language, national language, education language), and the fourth was their more or less mandatory grade 6 choice (usually German, French or Spanish). It can be difficult enough to find people who are B2+ in three languages, counting their native Swedish, despite a second foreign language being introduced early. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4083 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 12 of 23 22 June 2014 at 11:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
Sorry, I should have clarified, it probably is better than that of Italy and Spain, and I would vouch from experience that it is probably 50 times better than that of both the UK and USA combined, because the language education in mandatory education I find to be piss-poor at best, and not rigourous at all as a dessert to go therewith. But there must be something that Belgium, Netherlands, and Sweden, Denmark, etc. do that they have their children learn so many languages and well compared to other parts of the world. The only reason that I broke past into a ~C level in Spanish is definitely not from classes. Also Spanish is not a big language in the Anglophone world except for the USA, compared to French or German, but I perhaps should also reclarify, I would feel much more confident in being able to learn a language to a high level in a primary and secondary school in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Croatia, or Slovenia than the UK, USA, Australia, or New Zealand. Travelling within Continental Europe is already a dream in itself, and learning the languages for travel truly makes much sense. Probably add languages during mandatory educationa nd then exposure after matriculation, then the added advantage of travel helps to foster this phenomenon. It explains why Prague feels like a better place to learn a number of languages in context than Manchester or Newcastle. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4802 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 13 of 23 23 June 2014 at 12:09am | IP Logged | |||||
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The reason for their high levels of English is well known. No dubbing on tv. It's that simple. Czech, Italian, Spanish, Slovak, French etc. channels dub a lot. So, the people in the dubbing countries throw lots of money out of the window for coursebooks, cds and classes and so on and then immerse themselves back in their native languages until the next class.
About other languages? I think the myth of everyone in countries with more national languages knowing all of them is just that: a myth. I've met groups of French Swiss and Italian Swiss people who wouldn't speak with each other due to the language bareer and they were both in Berlin to learn German. I've met Belgians with no knowledge of the second language of their country. And I doubt the Skandinavians are in general that proficient at any other foreign language than English. Primary and secondary schools don't teach to such high levels in general (at the end of highschool here, you are to be anywhere from B1 to C1 but many people only try to fake B1 at the final exam and the examinators close their eyes except for the most horrible cases). Many people learn as adults, having found out their skills from school are not enough for their careers. They go to courses, they take ineficient paths and so on but their skills after such courses are still different from skills most people acquire during their childhood/teenage education. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| holly heels Groupie United States Joined 3679 days ago 47 posts - 107 votes Studies: Mandarin | Message 14 of 23 23 June 2014 at 1:03am | IP Logged | |||||
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Bombarding myself with Mandarin radio daily until my ears bleed, I am sometimes tempted to learn an "easier" language just to take a break from it all.
It might even improve my skill level, which some native speakers say is "not bad" (bu cuo) or "very good" (hen hao). I can see the benefits of learning 2 languages at once, especially if you eventually fail at one of them. There really is not a vast population of native English speaking Americans learning a second language, even Spanish, so it would be impossible to survey them as to their motivations or competitiveness. In America, even being able to say one sentence in Mandarin will get you introduced as "a person who speaks Chinese". I would imagine that in Europe many would just roll their eyes. So the standard of fluency is much lower. Also, in America, it seems that there is a kind of social stigma attached to American public figures who are fluent in any other foreign language except French. An American political leader who addressed a crowd in fluent Turkish or Arabic would viewed my many with suspicion, but many Europeans would see it as chic and sophisticated. Probably most aspiring polyglots want to be strong in as many languages as possible, and whether successful polyglots learned their languages one by one or all at the same time was probably more a result of the circumstances they found themselves in (birth country, etc.) rather than any conscious choices that they made. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4682 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 15 of 23 23 June 2014 at 11:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
I need to have sit down with your professor! Calvinist power in N America peaked in the 1600's (King Philip's War, the Salem witch trials, and other horrible stuff). They were never a majority outside of a few New England colonies, and the secular character of the Revolutionary generation was in part a reaction against the Puritans. But I agree that Americans tend to be more competitive, for whatever reason. Usually, americans tend to go for high level in one before moving on while europeans tend to prefer more at once ;-) That's been my pattern, though I'm trying to break free from it. The challenge we have is that it's hard to get reinforcement in our languages. I've found that extensive reading helps, but it takes a lot of effort to reach that point. I get envious of Europeans who can get regular immersion in their target languages! And the dark side is that they need to be highly proficient in order to be better then their partner is at English That's been a real challenge for native Anglophones in Europe. It was a major personal milestone when my French reached a level where it was easier for people to speak to me in French than English. y experiences outside of Western Europe have been the opposite, though. As soon as I learned minimal levels of Turkish, Arabic, or Japanese people were ready to switch completely away from English - even when, like in Japan, I probably knew less than 100 words. And in countries like Mexico and Guatemala the attitude outside the tourist centers is: You're in Mexico (or Guatemala). You should be speaking Spanish. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4702 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 16 of 23 24 June 2014 at 9:05am | IP Logged | |||||
You do need to have a sit down with Cavesa's professor; you might learn something. ;) Of course Calvinist power in N America centred on New England, but it peaked in the 1700s, culminating in the Great Awakening. However, the influence of Calvinism is not simply on those who were called Calinists. Cavesa's professor is clearly speaking about what is commonly called the "Protestant work ethic", but he probably avoided the phrase because it can be controversial. I didn't pay much attention to the Economics class I took 25 years ago, but one thing I remember is an author (Peter somebody?) arguing that if there had been no Calvinism there would be no capitalism. EDIT to add: The frontier spirit, manifest destiny, etc, are all children of the Calvinist spirit. To bring it back to the point of the thread, the frontier spirit is also one of the reasons Americans don't learn foreign languages. On the frontier, as in the new colonies, you don't have time for luxuries, everything must be directed to survival and success. When I tell friends and family in the USA I'm learning a language, they always want to know why. What's the use? Will it make me money, improve my job? Edited by Jeffers on 24 June 2014 at 9:14am 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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