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Benefits of failing to learn a language | ||
Tags: dropping a Language | Brain | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Fuenf_Katzen Diglot Senior Member United States notjustajd.wordpress Joined 4166 days ago 337 posts - 476 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Polish, Ukrainian, Afrikaans | Message 9 of 38 19 July 2014 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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I wonder if he didn't so much do anything "wrong," but maybe he chose methods that were wrong for him, or he wasn't doing it long enough.
The author says he used the following methods to study French: 2 hours a day of Rosetta Stone and Fluenz, meetup groups, and intensive weekend class, French movies, tv, radio, and two weeks of immersion at a top French school. Of that list, meetup groups a lot of people on here have found to be problematic, because it's success depends partially on luck; it you end up in a group with mainly beginners, it's too tempting for the conversation to revert to English (or whatever the dominant language is) when the French becomes too complicated. Or what I've also found, the conversation stays at the same level and never pushes you further. Movies/tv/radio can be difficult to maintain focus, and I've actually stopped counting full length movies towards my "study" time if I have to rely on subtitles. I don't think using media is detrimental at all, and I have learned from it, but the amount of focus needed for some to really learn from it is a lot higher than what is needed in your native language. I haven't tried Rosetta Stone or Fluenz, but not every program will work for every learner. A danger of any software or textbook is that the learner becomes really good at working within that method, but once he is outside of that situation, he isn't able to produce sentences on his own. (I'm not picking on any particular program here--I've seen it happen with primarily drill-based materials as well). Same thing with intensive weekend classes--that much time one day a week doesn't help everybody. It also may be that the focus was in the wrong area for the author--if it was focused too much on speaking or too much on reading or grammar, not all of his skills would have developed evenly. With all of these variables, it isn't entirely shocking that the final 2 weeks didn't bring about an immediate success. I actually think the author was probably further along than he believes--my guess is that he has it in his head, but didn't learn the best way for him to activate it. He focused specifically on his conversational ability, which makes me think he understood what was being said to him, but wasn't able to (or didn't have the confidence to) respond back. 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4241 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 10 of 38 19 July 2014 at 10:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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There is and will continue to be the ongoing debate does age matter in learning a new language.
Besides languages, there is another specialty that we assume you need to start at a young age or you won't get there: Classical piano or violin. I can name 3 young piano virtuosos from Canada who fit the category and all 3 are bilingual. 1. Ryan Wang in Vancouver (English & Chinese) 2. Jan Lisiecki in Calgary (English & Polish) 3. Daniel Clarke Bouchard in Montreal (English & French) Ryan appeared on TV in both Canada, Ellen in the US and in China. He seemed to have no trouble communicating in front of a Chinese audience in Beijing. Jan appeared on TV in Poland talking in Polish. Daniel was on TV in Montreal talking in French and appeared on the CBC George Stroumbo. show in English. We assumed all 3 pianists started their training before age 6. With the exception of Daniel, the other 2 grew up in a city that is not officially bilingual but learned to speak their mother-tongue at home. Another name that came to mind is Jerome White who adopted the Japanese name: ジェロ (Jero). As an African-American, he grew up around his Japanese grandmother and learned to sing Enka songs at a young age although he wasn't fluent in Japanese when he started. In his early 20s, he moved to Japan to pursue his singing career. As someone who travels between 2 countries, he is fluent in American English & Japanese. Other names I came across online who became fluent in a second language later in life: 1. Roberto Casanova - Brazilian Portuguese background who married a Japanese wife, moved to Japan and became a singer in Japanese. 2. 郝弟 (Hǎodì) from Nigeria in W. Africa who moved to China. In his 20s, he learned to speak fluent Chinese in 8 months while singing Chinese songs at the same time. 1 Chinese show host described his Chinese as being fluent but with an accent from southern China (not the typical Beijing accent). Personally, I don't think any of the names on my list learned their languages with a "commercial product" like Pimsleur or Rosetta Store. They didn't participate in weekly meet-up groups but instead go about their day-to-day activities in different languages. You don't have to be Ryan Wang but instead you can be more like Roberto Casanova who became bilingual at a much older age. Learning a new language is a matter of setting a higher goal for yourself that you want to be a translator for instance, or you have a passion for singing. Your newly acquired language is just a tool to help you achieve your dream. Edited by shk00design on 20 July 2014 at 2:24am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5563 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 11 of 38 19 July 2014 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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I agree with Fuenf Katzen. Actually, to me it sounds like he spent a lot of the time getting a 'basic linguistic fitness' back and getting his brain in shape for more.
3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5227 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 12 of 38 20 July 2014 at 12:01am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks shk000design for some good examples. I'm not sure if there is really much debate about whether age does
matter in learning a new language. I think the debate may be more about why age seems to matter. The overwhelming evidence points to the superiority of learning at a young age. And when one looks at adults who have achieved high proficiency later in life, we see, as with the examples here, that the circumstances are rather unusual, i.e. moving to Japan or China and becoming a singer. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| rlnv Senior Member United States Joined 3748 days ago 126 posts - 233 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 13 of 38 20 July 2014 at 3:22am | IP Logged | ||
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I can't help but wonder what the authors motivation was for his attempt at learning French. Was it because he had a burning desire to speak French? Was it because he wanted material for a book? Something else? He did come of a bit defeatist.
His CNS Vital Signs tests seem to indicate good things happening. So be it if the first year does not yield being on par with a native 3 year old? How about the second year, or third? By his own admission, he is in a better place to take advantage of continued effort. I read once somewhere that the high percentage of people that reach intermediate, quit. Perhaps the author is just another casualty of that statistic. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4241 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 14 of 38 20 July 2014 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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There is not a single answer why older people fail to learn a new language. The author of the article
William Alexander did not explain in details why he failed to learn French (including grammar rules, vocabulary, imitating the sounds of the language, etc). He did mention being enrolled in an immersion program in France in 1 of the top schools but did not specify whether there were prerequisites for the course, he passed or did well in it. Unlike Chinese where there is the issue of memorizing characters, you are basically using the 26 letters of the Latin alphabet. And between English, there are half-dozen "cognates" or words & phrases that are similar such as: The table = Le table The restaurant = Le restaurant The letter = La lettre Maybe the author did not set realistic goals and was expecting too much in a short-time. Like the author of the article I was in Taiwan for a study program for 3 weeks and spent the rest of the summer traveling around the island. Being assigned to a low advanced level was a challenge. We would read stories and do dictation on the new words & phrases the following day. My friend from the US and I both survived the course in the top 10%. The 2 of us would take turns asking for directions how to get to shopping places, bus routes and order food after reading the menu. Now he is learning German. He participates in weekly conversation meetings at the local Deutsche Club and recently spent a few weeks in Germany to improve his German. He took Mandarin classes at a local university sponsored by the Confucius Institute. We exchanged letters in Chinese and over the years his writing improved. He told me that his German isn't at the same level as his Chinese but he hasn't given up yet. Take learning to use a computer for instance: I know a couple in their 80s. The husband started learning to use one about 10 years ago but never completely mastered sending an Email. Partly because he had no concept of computer "editing" and was typing like he would use a mechanical typewriter. And he could not navigate the Internet besides a few sites that was in his bookmark. After being diagnosed with dementia, he no longer uses the computer. A year ago his wife got an iPad. She got into sending & receiving Emails, watching TV shows online and searching for info via Google. We are talking about 2 people with a similar age but miles apart when it comes to using computers & electronic devices. She understands what the computer and the Internet allow her to do. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4241 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 15 of 38 21 July 2014 at 12:19am | IP Logged | ||
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In the 1980s, there was a TV Sitcom in the US calls "Silver Spoons". On 1 episode the mother in the
family got a private tutor and tried to learn some basic Japanese phrases to impress her Japanese business clients. After a few sessions of "repeat after me", the tutor gave up. She just couldn't do it. In another episode, the family was on a boat and got caught in a storm off Mexico. Their son with a few years of Spanish in school talked to local officials through the radio and guided the boat to safety. This is the typical scenario that we'd expect young people to be more able to acquire a new language than older people. However, there is also the debate since many language programs in schools are not immersion, people who study basic grammar and vocabulary wouldn't be able to conduct themselves even in basic conversations. A few months ago, I attended a party. Someone in the group talked about Chinese movies that she saw with a lady from China. The name of a movie "Raise the Red Lantern" directed by Zhang Yimou came up. The Chinese who lived in this country for less than 10 years didn't pick up the name. I told her the name is 大红灯笼高高挂 and she understood right away. In the article, I don't think the author got to the stage of being able to refer to names of specific political candidates or movies such as "La Cage aux Folles" = "The Bird Cage" sort of thing but something even more basic asking for directions such as "Where is the Cafe de Paris"? or "Où est le Café de Paris"? or more politely start the question with "Excusez-moi monsieur / madam" or “请问你, 巴黎餐厅在哪里"? In the process of learning Mandarin, French, etc. I watched a number of videos on how these people learn English and in the process pick up new words & phrases. No matter how good a learning system is (classroom or computer software), people need to go an extra mile and compile their own word list. In the past 8 months I compiled a list of over 100 Chinese 4-character proverbs 成语. This is something I consider necessary for language learning as well as keeping my mind active. Nowadays there is a lot info online. When I come across an unfamiliar word/phrase, I can click on the definition, usage & word origin on my electronic device. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 3896 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 16 of 38 21 July 2014 at 8:12am | IP Logged | ||
That isn't even true if you factor out a native language and look only at children who actually spent that critical infancy period listening only to the language they are learning. Children learn to speak, and learn to speak "correctly", at different ages in different countries. Even closely related languages differ. At 15 months old the average Swedish baby understands 130 words. The average Danish baby understands, at the same age, 80 words. They don't catch up with the other Scandinavian children until in third grade. That said, "There are no impossible languages, only fruitless methods" is probably an excellent attitude for learning languages. The most common reason I see, when I look around, for failing any endeavour is that negative inner monologue. Usually, it ensures that the person in question never even try. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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