Register  Login  Active Topics  Maps  

Is analyticity normal?

  Tags: Linguistics | Grammar
 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room Post Reply
11 messages over 2 pages: 1
Stolan
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4043 days ago

274 posts - 368 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Thai, Lowland Scots
Studies: Arabic (classical), Cantonese

 
 Message 9 of 11
18 August 2014 at 7:12pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:

If you want to see a circular movement that passes like a clockwork through four stages with uniform grammatical
typologies you will be disappointed - and this will also make it difficult to find purely analytical languages.
When a language is getting close to this stage there will already be processes underway that transform isolated
elements into affixes or endings.


I just want to confirm, did you read all of the paper I linked? Could you offer some opinions on what McWhorter
directly claimed?

Old Chinese and Hmong fit the criteria for pure analyticity, heck, Old Chinese pronouns didn't have plurality either.
In your humble opinion, did they just end up like that because they could? Take into account the grammar processes
too of Hmong and Old Chinese, wh-in-situ, no word order difficulties (only SVO, OSV is BARELY tolerated in
Hmong), lack of mandatory grammatical markings, no morphophonemic processes, no derivational methods aside
from reduplication, this is not only analyticity but a grammar that has much in common with a creole.

Slight off topic:
I may be mistaken but you seem to imply that infective languages are inherently more irregular for being so but that
is not the case, hittite is fusional but extremely simple, simpler than English despite having more inflection.
The irregularity and redundancy of features of modern IE languages and those influenced by
them is exceptional and not a mere matter of lazy sound changes.
Sound changes are like a 1/6th of it.

Edited by Stolan on 18 August 2014 at 7:20pm

1 person has voted this message useful



Medulin
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Croatia
Joined 4679 days ago

1199 posts - 2192 votes 
Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali

 
 Message 10 of 11
18 August 2014 at 10:28pm | IP Logged 
Futurity in Portuguese:

''I will love''

Latin: amabo
vulgar Latin: amare habeo
early Portuguese: amar hei
Portuguese: amarei
poetic Portuguese: hei de amar
colloquial Portuguese: vou amar

So, the tendency is not the one toward definitive analytic structure,
but the one of ''what goes around comes around''

analytical -> synthetic -> analytical -> synthetic -> analytical -> ...

Edited by Medulin on 18 August 2014 at 10:34pm

4 persons have voted this message useful





Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 6714 days ago

9078 posts - 16473 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 11 of 11
19 August 2014 at 1:42am | IP Logged 
I read the article through, but didn't study it assiduously for days (and I can't open it at the machine I'm using right now - even after removing the extra space).

The main point seemed to be that only creolization could result in a 100% analytic language freed of all the usual complications of naturally grown languages, and the rest of the text was dominated by a discussion of possible candidates for this process, none of which are known to me.

In this context I found it relevant to point out that it would be hard to achieve total analyticity because most languages contain elements on different stages of the circle mentioned by Medulin - and total analyticity would presuppose that all these tendencies in a language somehow became synchronized. Like McWhorter I find it likely that the occurence of total analyticity takes something like a clash between languages, resulting in the creation of a new simplified language mostly spoken by adults as a secondary language. Whether this actually happened anywhere is beyond my horizon.

Edited by Iversen on 19 August 2014 at 1:54am



1 person has voted this message useful



This discussion contains 11 messages over 2 pages: << Prev 1

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login. If you are not already registered you must first register


Post ReplyPost New Topic Printable version Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page was generated in 0.2031 seconds.


DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved
No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization.