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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies Post Reply
170 messages over 22 pages: << Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 8 ... 21 22 Next >>
victorhart
Bilingual Tetraglot
Groupie
United States
mandarinexperiment.o
Joined 1816 days ago

66 posts - 155 votes 
Speaks: English*, Portuguese*, Spanish, French
Studies: Mandarin

 
 Message 57 of 170
21 October 2014 at 4:31pm | IP Logged 
Wow emk, thanks so much for that tip and explanation!

I think I will do this, but sans the subtitles. Even though I am leaving subtitles on
when watching Mandarin movies, I'm at the point where I'm starting to take them off
for movies or clips that I have watched multiple times and have begun to understand. I
need to gradually transition to watching with no subtitles. In addition, with
bilingual subtitles I think the subs2srs would be a bit too "didactic" to qualify for
my experimental methodology. But if it's just video clips to review, as you say that
is absolutely in line with my methodology.

Am I correct in understanding that using this tool without subtitles would still make
sense, in that I would have video flashcards of the clips that have terms and phrases
that I want to assimilate?

I think this may be a real boost to my project and I hope I can get past the technical
hurdles and make it happen.

Edited by victorhart on 21 October 2014 at 4:34pm

1 person has voted this message useful



s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 3539 days ago

2704 posts - 5424 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 58 of 170
21 October 2014 at 4:32pm | IP Logged 
I see three learning scenarios here:

1. Watching authentic Mandarin videos with no English subtitles.
2. Watching authentic Mandarin videos with English subtitles
3. Watching authentic Mandarin after or in combination with some explicit learning tools, as per emk's
suggestion.

Not surprisingly, the probability of some positive outcome goes up, in my opinion, from zero to something.

What I find so hard to comprehend is why persist with an approach which, again in my opinion, is borderline
masochistic when a little investment in some explicit learning, as in scenario 3, can produce good results and
allow even greater enjoyment of the videos.

Maybe this is an experiment of some sorts, but of what?
1 person has voted this message useful



victorhart
Bilingual Tetraglot
Groupie
United States
mandarinexperiment.o
Joined 1816 days ago

66 posts - 155 votes 
Speaks: English*, Portuguese*, Spanish, French
Studies: Mandarin

 
 Message 59 of 170
21 October 2014 at 4:40pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
What I find so hard to comprehend is why persist with an approach
which, again in my opinion, is borderline
masochistic when a little investment in some explicit learning, as in scenario 3, can
produce good results and
allow even greater enjoyment of the videos.

Maybe this is an experiment of some sorts, but of what?


Well, it's not masochistic because I'm really enjoying it.

My goals include (1) testing and hopefully proving the value of watching authentic
video sources, even for beginners (which I believe is much greater than you think, so
here we just honestly disagree) and (2) in the context of an incredibly busy schedule,
slowly learn Mandarin without the need for a regular schedule, classes, etc.; on the
contrary, do it as a way to relax and have fun at the end of a long day.
2 persons have voted this message useful





emk
Diglot
Moderator
United States
Joined 3641 days ago

2615 posts - 8805 votes 
Speaks: English*, FrenchB2
Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 60 of 170
21 October 2014 at 5:25pm | IP Logged 
victorhart wrote:
Wow emk, thanks so much for that tip and explanation!

I think I will do this, but sans the subtitles. Even though I am leaving subtitles on
when watching Mandarin movies, I'm at the point where I'm starting to take them off
for movies or clips that I have watched multiple times and have begun to understand.

I'm glad to help! And yes, once you figure out Anki card templates, you can show or hide anything you want.

Using subs2srs with no subtitles at all is more effective than just watching TV (because of the repetition), and less effective than using the subtitles as an occasional "cheat" when needed.

But to share some personal experience, I loathe having English anywhere in my Anki decks, and I can't stand watching French TV with English subtitles. However, I have one exception to this rue: my subs2srs cards, because I'm never even tempted to look at the English subtitles unless they're needed to understand something. Seriously; my eyes skip over those English subtitles the same way they skip over banner adds on web pages. So in practice, I use the English subs the way a child uses parental pantomime: I pay attention the first few times, if I really need to, and thereafter I work directly from the audio. The audio will normally stand alone and stick, and the back of the card will become irrelevant.

It's also possible to print the subtitles in a 7-point font, or even hide them behind an extra button, though the latter requires knowledge of JavaScript. This isn't to say that you should include subtitles—I just wanted to suggest that they feel very different here than they do when watching TV.

victorhart wrote:
Am I correct in understanding that using this tool without subtitles would still make
sense, in that I would have video flashcards of the clips that have terms and phrases
that I want to assimilate?

Oh, yeah. You can change the card format, add things to the cards, or anything else which amuses you.

victorhart wrote:
I think this may be a real boost to my project and I hope I can get past the technical
hurdles and make it happen.

To minimize the technical hurdles, here's what I recommend:

1. Install Anki on your computer and mobile device, and get them synchronizing via AnkiWeb.
2. Find a pre-made subs2srs deck for Mandarin. If you already own the movie, this may count as transformative fair use in your jurisdiction. This step saves you significant technological pain.
3. Learn how to make custom note types, and how to put specific fields on the front and back and format them a bit. Here's where you can hide the fields which you don't want.
4. Throw out cards, edit cards, etc., to meet your needs.
5. Limit yourself to 5 or 10 new cards per day for the first 30 days. Reviews pile up quickly.
6. Delete auto-generated cards aggressively when reviewing! Only keep the awesome ones.

If you stick to the steps above, the only real learning curve is customizing card layout in step (3), and at worst, that's just a dialog box and maybe a bit of light HTML/CSS.

If you're a power user, and you enjoy your first subs2srs experience, then you can set aside a day or two and learn to make your own decks from your favorite movies and shows. This is relatively straight-forward if you already have MP4 files and good subtitles in *.srt format. If you need to OCR the subs or rip the video files, it's going to be pretty annoying.

Oh, and for the French students in the audience: A few minutes of Amélie dialog as Anki cards. This will make a lot more sense if you've actually watched the movie, and it should be accessible for A2 and up.
3 persons have voted this message useful



rdearman
Senior Member
United Kingdom
rdearman.orgRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 3345 days ago

881 posts - 1812 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin

 
 Message 61 of 170
21 October 2014 at 5:29pm | IP Logged 
I have tended to stay out of this argument. However I also believe in watching a lot of Native materials and I love watching Mandarin TV shows. However you're not going to be able to read or write with this method, and that I believe will be the thing which will hold you back.

We get a LOT more vocabulary from books than from conversation and films and TV are all conversation. I imagine that after you get to the point where you could understand 100% of a film, then turn the sub-titles (in Mandarin) back on then you might start to read.

I admire the experiment but personally I don't have the time. I'm trying to learn Mandarin in 2 years, so I'm doing a lot more study than you, but I'm also watching about an hour per day of TV whenever possible and at least 4 hours per week. Of course I don't watch kids TV cause that would drive me potty.

I also don't understand s_allards objections, since he has publicly stated you only need 250 words to speak a language, and it looks like you'll know 250 words in Mandarin shortly. How many words do you estimate you know? I assume you know all the numbers up to 1000 for example?
4 persons have voted this message useful



victorhart
Bilingual Tetraglot
Groupie
United States
mandarinexperiment.o
Joined 1816 days ago

66 posts - 155 votes 
Speaks: English*, Portuguese*, Spanish, French
Studies: Mandarin

 
 Message 62 of 170
21 October 2014 at 7:20pm | IP Logged 
rdearman wrote:
How many words do you estimate you know? I assume you know all the
numbers up to 1000 for example?


It's really hard to say, but I would guess about 200 words right now that if I hear in
an easy context and spoken clearly (or if I repeat the scene), I can understand.
Perhaps 50-100 that I can pick out very consistently.

I know my numbers pretty darn well from 1 to 10. This is mostly due to Qiao Hu. I
believe I could understand numbers (if spoken very clearly) to 99, since they seem to
follow a formula based on 1 to 10. However, I can't remember and don't think I've
learned the words for 100 and 1000.

Before people pounce on this as evidence my methodology is failing (well feel free, I
don't mind), I would say there is a lot of additional learning going on in terms of
getting my ear (or brain, really) accustomed to the language. I don't think that is
unimportant or merely wishful thinking.

It's good to hear about your studies and it would be great to hear more about your
progress and share video sources (I personally prefer movies and have a lot of
suggestions).
3 persons have voted this message useful



rdearman
Senior Member
United Kingdom
rdearman.orgRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 3345 days ago

881 posts - 1812 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin

 
 Message 63 of 170
21 October 2014 at 8:12pm | IP Logged 
Chinese numbers to 100 are easy. Just 2-10 = 20(二十), 3-10-2 = 32(三十二), etc. I update the stuff I'm watching on my Mandarin log if you want to have a look. Movies I tend to watch on Netflix or Amazon.
1 person has voted this message useful



patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 2642 days ago

1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 64 of 170
21 October 2014 at 9:06pm | IP Logged 
rdearman wrote:
Chinese numbers to 100 are easy. Just 2-10 = 20(二十), 3-10-2 = 32(三十二), etc.


Spoiler Alert!!!

You realize by saying this you're spoiling his experiment!!!


Edited by patrickwilken on 21 October 2014 at 9:22pm



5 persons have voted this message useful



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