Register  Login  Active Topics  Maps  

Language Learning Orthodoxy You Ignore

 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
116 messages over 15 pages: 1 2 3 4 57 ... 6 ... 14 15 Next >>
Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 4965 days ago

9753 posts - 15777 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 41 of 116
02 December 2014 at 6:48pm | IP Logged 
Lemberg1963 wrote:
For me the big one is that I use and like Rosetta Stone. It fits perfectly into my Anki workflow.

Please expand on that. I'm sure what most of us agree about is really that there's next to no evidence of anyone achieving anything significant with RS that wouldn't have been achieved faster and more smoothly with other methods. But most are willing to question that if they see evidence that doesn't come from someone who's obviously working for RS.

And then there's the financial part. Did you get RS from a library?

Edited by Serpent on 02 December 2014 at 6:53pm

1 person has voted this message useful



ScottScheule
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
scheule.blogspot.com
Joined 3596 days ago

645 posts - 1176 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Latin, Hungarian, Biblical Hebrew, Old English, Russian, Swedish, German, Italian, French

 
 Message 42 of 116
02 December 2014 at 7:09pm | IP Logged 
I don't know what the scientific orthodoxy is on learning languages in adulthood. I imagine there is one, but I don't know it.

As to the orthodoxy of common wisdom, I'm not sure that exists either. We have different opinions on how to learn languages here on this forum, and there are many other such fora, blogs, and channels on the Internet, with their own slants on these things.

I do disagree with folks here from time to time. Some positions I've had that clashed with others' are "I don't think one should delete SRS cards liberally," and "There's no responsibility for a person to prioritize learning any particular language, even if that language is the language of one's culture and it's dying out."

But I rarely criticize the learning techniques of others, because I believe there are many roads leading to the same goal (assuming we even have the same goal!), certain roads which may suit a particular person better than another.
1 person has voted this message useful



s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 3798 days ago

2704 posts - 5424 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 43 of 116
02 December 2014 at 7:53pm | IP Logged 
ScottScheule wrote:

...

But I rarely criticize the learning techniques of others, because I believe there are many roads leading
to the same goal (assuming we even have the same goal!), certain roads which may suit a particular
person better than another.

There is an important point here. Can we assume that we have the same goal? I'm not sure we do.
Under the umbrella of "learning a foreign language" there is, I think, a big divide between those who
want to actually speak the language, preferably with native speakers, and those who want to able to
read and listen to works of culture in the target language without actually speaking it well.

These are two legitimate goals. They are also the source of some friction here. I won't go into all the
implications but I think, for example, that "speakers" would tend to be more interested in oral
conversational comprehension, phonetics, speaking as soon as possible and immersion whereas the
others would be more interested in reading, writing, developing vocabulary and oral comprehension of
literary works.
3 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 4965 days ago

9753 posts - 15777 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 44 of 116
02 December 2014 at 8:27pm | IP Logged 
It's more of a continuum, really, and it's a question of timing and opportunities. For many, speaking isn't their first goal, but one they'd like to achieve eventually, often after they learn to communicate in writing.

One more thing is that most long-term members have already achieved a pretty high level in the language they have most contact with, such as English or Spanish. In my case Finnish and English (although I don't really enjoy speaking the latter).

There's even some correlation to extraversion and introversion. Introverts hate small talk and often wait until they can say something meaningful and understand the response. Although if you look at tarvos, Iversen and me, we're all different. Tarvos seems to speak sooner and consume less aural media. Iversen starts by thinking and writing, and progresses to speaking and listening while abroad. I only start reading when I'm good at listening, then I write very little and practise speaking abroad (and then polish my writing, ideally). The individual differences are just too large to speak of any tendencies. And we three are supposedly quite similar learners, if you compare us to Benny for example.
3 persons have voted this message useful



ScottScheule
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
scheule.blogspot.com
Joined 3596 days ago

645 posts - 1176 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Latin, Hungarian, Biblical Hebrew, Old English, Russian, Swedish, German, Italian, French

 
 Message 45 of 116
02 December 2014 at 9:35pm | IP Logged 
Yes, I've heard some language "authorities" (scare quotes because these are simply people with popular blogs, not credentials) criticize some learners for reasons that, at the end of the day, were not necessarily deficiencies in their learning styles, but rather just a result of people seeking different goals. Some want to read famous works, some want to talk at a "sophisticated" level, some want to be able to make small talk with locals, some are just fascinated by different grammars and sounds and don't mind just tasting languages. It complicates things terribly, but nevertheless, these are all perfectly legitimate aims.

Edited by ScottScheule on 02 December 2014 at 9:40pm

1 person has voted this message useful



luke
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5573 days ago

3133 posts - 4350 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Esperanto, French

 
 Message 46 of 116
02 December 2014 at 9:58pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
It's more of a continuum, really, and it's a question of timing and opportunities. For many,
speaking isn't their first goal.

There's even some correlation to extraversion and introversion. Introverts hate small talk and often wait until
they can say something meaningful and understand the response.


These are good points. I think those who prioritize the less social skills of reading, or listening, or watching
TV tend to prefer more intimate or profound conversations.
2 persons have voted this message useful



YnEoS
Senior Member
United States
Joined 2622 days ago

472 posts - 893 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: German, Russian, Cantonese, Japanese, French, Hungarian, Czech, Swedish, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish

 
 Message 47 of 116
02 December 2014 at 10:38pm | IP Logged 
Other big factors for different techniques are the materials you're interested in, and the materials available for your target languages. I use language study as a supplement to film study so now I do most of my studying in Anki because subs2SRS lets me combine my film studies and language studies. But if they released audiobook versions of film textbooks I'd probably be doing way more L-R than SRS.
2 persons have voted this message useful



kanewai
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
justpaste.it/kanewai
Joined 3257 days ago

1386 posts - 3054 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese
Studies: Italian, Spanish

 
 Message 48 of 116
02 December 2014 at 11:37pm | IP Logged 
I think SRS tools (anki, babbel, duolingo, lingvist, et al) are extremely effective. I
just don't use them.   Or rather, I use them for a week or two and then drift off.

I find reading a very slow approach to learning languages. Watching tv and movies is
even slower.

Yet, during the last month, I've spent 1.5 hours on SRS, 13 hours each on novels and
tv. It's not so much that I'm ignoring anything orthodox. It's that I do this for
fun, and I'm ok with the slow and steady approach to languages.

If I had to take a test, or had a job offer in a foreign country, I would immediately
switch to the more intense and less fun orthodox methods.

DaraghM wrote:

My own personal disbeliefs around language learning, some of which are mentioned
before, are,

-     Massive input leads to output. (I wish this were true, but it hasn’t worked for
me)
-     You can converse in a language, without practising conversation skills. ( I
think Prof. Arguelles has reversed his position on this)


I actually found these to be true for my French, but the key is it requires truly
titanic-levels of massive input. As in, I had done two levels of Assimil, three
quarters of FSI, and read 10,0000 pages of French lit over two years, but had zero
conversation practice. And my language skills really did seem to magically appear
when I finally actually went to France.

I tried the same with half the work in Spanish, and had no results. No magic, just me
sounding like a typical gringo.



3 persons have voted this message useful



This discussion contains 116 messages over 15 pages: << Prev 1 2 3 4 57 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15  Next >>


Post ReplyPost New Topic Printable version Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page was generated in 0.3438 seconds.


DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
Copyright 2020 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved
No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization.