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Gary’s 2015 TACtivation: FR, IT

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Sarnek
Diglot
Senior Member
Italy
Joined 3975 days ago

308 posts - 414 votes 
Speaks: Italian*, English
Studies: German, Swedish

 
 Message 73 of 187
12 March 2015 at 3:03pm | IP Logged 
These are the ones I found yesterday:

1) [...] per quanto riguarda la stanchezza e le sue cause sottostante = per quanto riguarda la stanchezza e le sue cause sottostanti.
Cause is plural feminine, sottostante is an adjective with "2 uscite", therefore it becomes sottostanti;
2) [...] se no il tempo limitato = se non il tempo limitato;

These are a couple more I've had to be really picky to find...
3) [...] invece rendersi conto che si tratti di una questione di priorità = probably better if the verbs is in the present tense here
(che si tratta...)
2) qualcosa che mi faccia svagarmi e divertirmi = qualcosa che mi faccia svagare e divertire (no need to repeat the pronoun).


If you have any questions just ask away.



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garyb
Triglot
Senior Member
ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 4967 days ago

1468 posts - 2413 votes 
Speaks: English*, Italian, French
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 74 of 187
12 March 2015 at 3:41pm | IP Logged 
Cavesa wrote:
I believe no compliment is the best compliment.

When they just carry on and treat you like one of theirs, it's the best compliment.


I agree. In the French "customer service" interactions I mentioned, I was always really happy that I was speaking French and they were just replying completely normally in French. It's a small thing but it made me feel like a proper speaker, one of theirs as you say, rather than just a learner.

Cavesa wrote:
It really surprises me the Italians appear to have the same approach, their language is a popular one. [...] I can't believe they are so unused to successful learners.


Yeah, it surprises me too, but many Italians I meet find it hard to comprehend the idea of someone learning their language, especially to an advanced level. I think a lot of people want to learn Italian, but not that many are successful and get beyond the basics. I've met a lot of other language learners at meetups etc. and judging by that, Italian is nowhere near as popular is the big two, French and Spanish. I still get annoyed by their idea that their language is useless though: it may only be associated with one country, but like you say, Italians and their culture are everywhere.

Cavesa wrote:
The French have a bit of a bad luck, which is kind of excuse for the weird ways many treat foreigners speaking French. There are so many French learners and vast majority sucks. It is often not their fault. I can just see it around here. The French has the reputation of a difficult language with little practical (=employment) use and there is lower competition among the teachers which leads to much lower standards than when it comes to English/German.


Agreed again. French is a language that gets butchered a hell of a lot so I can understand the attitudes they sometimes have towards learners. I've already written about my difficulties with finding language exchanges and with meetups dominated by learners.

Cavesa wrote:
You can never compare the ESL learners with learners of other languages.


Yep. No shortage of media and opportunities that are easily accessible if not outright unavoidable. I wonder if there's also an element of that in the compliments: "your Italian is better than my English" is really something like "your Italian is better by Italian learner standards then my English is by English learner standards". Or maybe I'm reading too much into it and just need to learn to take a compliment ;)

Sarnek: Thanks a lot, that's helpful! These adjective endings are something I often mess up, especially in speaking: one of these errors that my Italian friends apparently never notice!

Edited by garyb on 12 March 2015 at 3:43pm

2 persons have voted this message useful



Cavesa
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 4769 days ago

3277 posts - 6779 votes 
Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1
Studies: Spanish, German, Italian

 
 Message 75 of 187
12 March 2015 at 8:43pm | IP Logged 
Funny to hear about such wide spread failures at learning Italian. Today, I spoke with
an interesting and intelligent girl who's very interested in languages (she knows
English, German and some Spanish and Italian, now learning French) and she claimed
Italian to be totally easy. However, she finds the languages impossible to maintain as
she finds very few original books to her taste in them (which I'd say is just for the
lack of trying. I dislike it when people say things like "heh, there is nothing you'd
want to read in Italian". Such a thought is just ignorance and arrogance in my
opinion.). Really, easy? I dare to doubt that.

Quote:
"your Italian is better by Italian learner standards then my English is by
English learner standards".


That is an interesting thought and it might be quite true.

2 persons have voted this message useful



eyðimörk
Triglot
Senior Member
France
goo.gl/aT4FY7
Joined 3859 days ago

490 posts - 1158 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*, English, French
Studies: Breton, Italian

 
 Message 76 of 187
12 March 2015 at 10:30pm | IP Logged 
garyb wrote:
Also, I've mostly visited more touristy places, and if I remember correctly, you live somewhere more rural where English is less widespread? I doubt that I'd come across many door-to-door potato salesmen in my trips to Paris and Nice :).

Ay, we have lots and lots of Englishmen. Truly lots of them. But the size of the expat bubble doesn't affect the natives much. :)

Cavesa wrote:
Funny to hear about such wide spread failures at learning Italian. Today, I spoke with an interesting and intelligent girl who's very interested in languages (she knows English, German and some Spanish and Italian, now learning French) and she claimed Italian to be totally easy.

I suspect it's more of a "wide-spread failure at learning any language", with Italian (along with French and others) being a popular language in general. Let's not forget that this forum is in no way representative of the general public, and that most people who wish they spoke a language at most learn some touristy phrases, and either never progress much beyond that or give up and forget pretty much everything that they learnt.
4 persons have voted this message useful



garyb
Triglot
Senior Member
ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 4967 days ago

1468 posts - 2413 votes 
Speaks: English*, Italian, French
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 77 of 187
13 March 2015 at 11:46am | IP Logged 
Cavesa wrote:
However, she finds the languages impossible to maintain as
she finds very few original books to her taste in them (which I'd say is just for the
lack of trying. I dislike it when people say things like "heh, there is nothing you'd
want to read in Italian". Such a thought is just ignorance and arrogance in my
opinion.). Really, easy? I dare to doubt that.


I'm also surprised by that. I've had no problem finding interesting books (and films) in Italian, both classic and modern. French has been slightly more difficult but if you look hard enough you can find. English and Spanish learners are spoilt for choice. It could depend on taste though: I know that sci-fi and fantasy fans have been disappointed by the quantity and quantity available in languages other than English. Translations are always an option but I generally prefer original works for the cultural references etc. My taste is more for "real-life" type stories, which are easier to find.

Easy? I think Italian is of typical difficulty for a Romance language, at least the ones I'm familiar with. We could debate till the cows come home about their repsective pronunciation or grammar or pluricentricity/dialects or whatever, but all things considered, I think that French, Italian and Spanish are all of similar difficulty. I can't speak for Germanic languages, but by FSI's numbers they're in the same category. So I find it hard to believe when people claim that any of them is an "easy language" or a "difficult language". No (natural) language is easy to learn, but relatively speaking, they're amongst the less difficult ones. Of course, many Italians are convinced that their language is one of the most difficult in Europe :).

I wonder what level her Italian is at. I learnt the basics quite quickly and easily thanks to my French, so I was temporarily fooled into thinking it was an easy language, but reaching a more advanced level is a lot of hard work.

eyðimörk wrote:
I suspect it's more of a "wide-spread failure at learning any language", with Italian (along with French and others) being a popular language in general. Let's not forget that this forum is in no way representative of the general public, and that most people who wish they spoke a language at most learn some touristy phrases, and either never progress much beyond that or give up and forget pretty much everything that they learnt.


Yes, that's always important to remember! I've met a handful people who've learnt Italian to an impressive level. In terms of proportions, I'd say they tend to be a bit more successful than French learners, who seem to rarely reach an advanced level even after many years.

Fewer people learn Italian seriously, but those who do tend to be passionate about it and make a serious effort. Like I said before, Italian is a popular language for dabbling and just learning the basics: lots of people think it's beautiful and travel to Italy. From my experience I'd say that Italian learners seem to be on one extreme or the other, learning only basics or learning very seriously, while French learners are more often in the middle, reaching an intermediate level but not progressing beyond that.
2 persons have voted this message useful



Cavesa
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 4769 days ago

3277 posts - 6779 votes 
Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1
Studies: Spanish, German, Italian

 
 Message 78 of 187
13 March 2015 at 5:15pm | IP Logged 
1. As a fantasy/sci-fi fan, I see no reason to be disappointed in any language of mine
(even though I imagine I might be disappointed if I learnt Navajo or Zulu, true). You
just need to dig a bit deeper usually as the first page of the appropriate amazon will
probably show just translations.

French: awesome historical fantasy (such as Pevel), lots of fantasy aimed at younger
readers (Brisou-Pelen, l'Homme), some fantasy/sci-fi of really good quality
(Chattame), a few classical sci-fi authors as well (Boule- la planete des singes,
Verne). tons of great historical and adventure novels, both old and modern, which are
just next to fantasy/scifi

Spanish: some sci-fi (got one on my shelf right now), some fantasy (cannot remember
names yet but there are a few shelves in the Cervantes library), lots of historical
novels (lots and lots), magical realism is basically a different kind of fantasy
(again, tons and tons) ;-)

German: some of their fantasy authors and books are well known abroad as well (such as
the Neverending Story), some are yet to be discovered by the learner. authors both
aiming at adults and some writing for younger readers. after all, it is the second
largest bookmarket in Europe, I'll write about their fantasy later during the year as
I'll hopefully get advanced enough to read by then. :-)

a learner of Russian, Polish or Czech is likely to be excited by the wealth of sci-
fi/fantasy, and I suppose most other languages do have at least a few good quality
authors, they just don't have as huge marketing as Martin, Tolkien, Rowling and other
anglophones.

and I think a usual fantasy/scifi reader can find lots of interst and fun in books of
related genres (adventures, historical novels, thrillers, detective novels, comic
books, myths and so on), which widens the offer significantly.

2.I don't know her Italian level. I didn't want to argue with her but I believe
Italian suffers from the same myth as Spanish (there was a nice thread about it). They
are said to be easy and the basics to get by are trully easier to acquire than in
French or English, in my opinion, but getting to a good level is a totally different
story with lots of obstacles and adventure involved.

3.you are probably right about the Italian learners being in the extremes of the scale
while the French being in the middle. But from my observation, most French learners
become the "famous" "false beginners" and get stuck there forever, it is not even the
true intermediate level. I think it is partially caused by the flawed ways of teaching
French that I've experienced repeatedly. I would guess the Spanish learners might join
the Italian ones as a crowd of beginners and a smaller one of advanced learners with
very few people in between.

Perhaps the myth of Italian/SPanish easiness isn't a bad thing. French is quite the
opposite. the constant fear of French being difficult, the pronunciation impossible to
learn and this or that grammar being bound to cause trouble, that is detrimental to
French teaching in most settings.

Edited by Cavesa on 13 March 2015 at 5:17pm

2 persons have voted this message useful



garyb
Triglot
Senior Member
ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 4967 days ago

1468 posts - 2413 votes 
Speaks: English*, Italian, French
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 79 of 187
16 March 2015 at 11:27am | IP Logged 
You obviously know your fantasy and sci-fi a lot better than me; it's just a complaint that I hear from time to time. Interesting to hear that good stuff is out there. I know that some people have had trouble actually obtaining the stuff they want to read; emk has talked about the difficulty of buying French ebooks for example. I've easily found a Kindle edition of almost every Italian book I've wanted to read on Amazon, but for French, often the only options are a paper copy (with delivery costs) or a pirate source. But still, it hardly seems like a justification for not maintaining a language.

I'd agree about Spanish learners: plenty dabblers, but those who apply themselves tend to reach a good level. There are probably a lot of factors: teaching as you mention, motivation (seems that many learn French because "it would be nice", while for other languages they tend to have more concrete reasons), and the social factors like attitudes of native speakers towards learners that we've discussed various times before. Yeah, the preconceived ideas about ease/difficulty probably don't help either: they can put learners off or become a self-fulfilling prophecy, and native speakers who think their language is very difficult tend to be less helpful towards learners and question their motivations more.


Anyway, news: I've found out that an Italian guy and his French girlfriend are going to stay in my flat for two weeks. I'll be away for one of these weeks and quite busy for the other, so the timing isn't ideal, but there should still be a few practice opportunities!
1 person has voted this message useful



Cavesa
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 4769 days ago

3277 posts - 6779 votes 
Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1
Studies: Spanish, German, Italian

 
 Message 80 of 187
16 March 2015 at 3:15pm | IP Logged 
Well, the difficulties with getting ebooks, that is an issue of the appropriate medium
being unavailable, not a trouble with the content. Hopefully, the entertainment
industry will understand one day that making piracy the only path for normal consumers
is not a wise choice. :-)

I think most readers can find something interesting and fun in most languages with at
least a few million natives that is official in at least one country. However, if
someone is interested strictly in one genre and doesn't enjoy even related ones, and
isn't willing to try something new, then I am surprised they even want to learn
another language as the culture tied to it tends to be a bit different.

Well, it's not only the natives convincing the learners about difficulties of French.
I've passed a really advanced exam and I'm still getting comments like "the French
pronunciation is so hard, you cannot learn it well". And this attitude is everywhere.
Teachers, coursebooks and so on.

Sounds like great news, I hope you'll find some time to talk to your guests.


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