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Team Sleipnir TAC 2015 - Team Thread

 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log Post Reply
170 messages over 22 pages: 1 2 3 4 57 ... 6 ... 21 22 Next >>
Ogrim
Heptaglot
Senior Member
France
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991 posts - 1896 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian
Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian

 
 Message 41 of 170
12 January 2015 at 10:37am | IP Logged 
Expugnator wrote:
Thank you Ogrim, your help is appreciated. May I start? I decided I won't go home with doubts unsolved.

First is the expression I read in today's lesson: å bile inn, as in "Reiser du til London hver dag?" "Ja, jeg biler inn hver dag". Is it still used? I always though people would plainly say "Jeg kjører dit hver dag".

Second is about double consonants. I always though they were present in spelling only for telling that the preceding vowel is short, but the same textbook I'm using says they do get pronounced doubly, as in tak = long vowel, short consonant and takk = long consonant, short vowel. Wikipedia also mentions something that long and short consonants occur alternately in Norwegian and Swedish. Is it really so, should I pay attention to make my double consonants long? (Well, maybe not sooo contrastively long as, say, Italian).

Takk for hjelpen og velkommen ombord!


Hi Expug. I know the expression "å bile inn" but I think it is hardly ever used nowadays. Personally I would never say that, but rather "kjøre inn" as you suggest or "jeg tar bilen inn hver dag", if you want to express clearly that you go by car and not another means of transport. So better to avoid "bile" as a verb.

As for consonants, this is what the Norwegian Wikipedia says about the length:
Quote:
Fonologisk sett har norske konsonanter ikke lengdeforskjell. Selv om det er mulig å måle en liten forskjell i lengde mellom konsonanter, er dette alltid avhengig av vokallengde, og forskjellen er langt mindre enn den er det for lange og korte vokaler.


So basically, it does not make any difference whether you try to pronounce a double consonant longer. A double consonant in Norwegian is used to indicate that the preceding vowel is short, and nothing else. A good explanation of the rules can be found at ordnett.no

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daegga
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Austria
lang-8.com/553301
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1076 posts - 1792 votes 
Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian
Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic

 
 Message 42 of 170
12 January 2015 at 4:20pm | IP Logged 
I view the length of consonants in Norwegian partly as a consequence of prosody, which also
means that it might depend on the region (I think the length difference is most prominent
in Østlandet). This means trying to place the word stress on the consonant rather on the
vowel (not sure if that even can be done, but I use it as a mental image). But that makes
sense only if the word is supposed to be stressed, functional words often aren't, except
when they are stressed consciously (eg. det ER ikke rigtig vs. det er IKKE rigtig, the k in
the latter ikke being longer than in the former).

Trying to actally make it longer than a single consonant will probably result in an
artificially long consonant. The stress thing works better for me, even though it might not
have linguistic grounds ;)
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Ogrim
Heptaglot
Senior Member
France
Joined 4483 days ago

991 posts - 1896 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian
Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian

 
 Message 43 of 170
12 January 2015 at 5:17pm | IP Logged 
I think phonetically a double consonant might be pronounced slightly longer than a single one if it is in a stressed syllable, but the difference is very small and most Norwegians won't notice any difference. It might be a bit more noticable with nasal and fricative consonants like n or f, but even here the difference between "mannen" (the man) and "manen" (the mane e.g. of a horse) is due to the vowel length and not the length of the n.

In daegga's example it is the sentence prosody that matters, not the accent within the word as such, and in that case people may "artificially" make the consonant(s) longer in order to accentuate the whole word as such within the sentence.
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jeff_lindqvist
Diglot
Moderator
SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name
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Speaks: Swedish*, English
Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French
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 Message 44 of 170
12 January 2015 at 6:46pm | IP Logged 
Expugnator - as Ogrim says, the vowel length is more important than how "long" you make the consonants. (OK, I know that Finnish has all combinations of long and short vowels and consonants) As long as you use the right vowel where you should, the consonant quantity is of lesser importance. By the way, a long "a" is [ɑː], i.e. not just a longer version of a short "a" [aː].

Edited by jeff_lindqvist on 12 January 2015 at 6:48pm

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aloysius
Triglot
Winner TAC 2010 & 2012
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SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name
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Speaks: Swedish*, English, German
Studies: French, Greek, Italian, Russian

 
 Message 45 of 170
12 January 2015 at 8:51pm | IP Logged 
Regarding "bile inn" I am not aware of any Swedish equivalent in the sense of commuting but it´s perfectly possible to use Swedish "bila" in phrases like "bila till kontinenten" or "bila genom Tyskland". For commuting the word "bilpendla" is frequently used. "Jag bilpendlar varje dag mellan Stockholm och Uppsala". Another useful phrase is "Jag tog bilen in till stan".

I agree about what has been said about consonant quantity above. It is easy to spot the difference in Finnish pronunciation between single and double consonants but I have never reflected on the existence of anything similar in the Scandinavian languages.

By the way I consider taking up Icelandic this year so I might apply for a membership in Valhall/Sleipner/whatever you decide for your team name. It is nice to see that there is so much interest in the Scandinavian languages!

//aloysius

Edited by aloysius on 12 January 2015 at 8:59pm

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Expugnator
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Brazil
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Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento
Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian

 
 Message 46 of 170
12 January 2015 at 10:43pm | IP Logged 
You're welcome anytime, aloysius. Thank you for your feedback on Swedish. Thank you Ogrim, daegga and jeff, the discussion was really interesting and it all makes sense now. I am studying Estonian so I'm used to triple-length of consonant and vowel distinction =D

As for the team name, based on the overall discussion I see a preference for Sleipnir (myself included), so I've updated the roster, the thread title and will post at the main TAC thread to inform Josquin as well. In DK/NO/SV it's Sleipner, NN Sleipne, IS Sleipnir. So, Team Sleipnir shall it be!

@suzukaze, this is the usual place for posting the challenges. You may have a copy at your log, but I think the point of the challenges is making them a team thread activity, and having each one post their own after another, this fits more into the spirit of being a team and doing things together.



Edited by Expugnator on 12 January 2015 at 10:45pm

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suzukaze
Triglot
Senior Member
Italy
bit.ly/1bGm459
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186 posts - 254 votes 
Speaks: Italian*, English, Spanish
Studies: German, French, Swedish, Japanese

 
 Message 47 of 170
13 January 2015 at 10:22pm | IP Logged 
@Expugnator OK, thanks a lot for clearing that up :)

I cannot add the Team name to my log title (I'm in a bunch of different teams XD), but I'll be sure to write it on my joined team list.
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jeff_lindqvist
Diglot
Moderator
SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name
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Speaks: Swedish*, English
Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French
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 Message 48 of 170
14 January 2015 at 12:28am | IP Logged 
By the way #1: I'd like to have the challenges on the first page (maybe at the end of the first post, where it says who did what).
By the way #2: Since last Monday, I have spent some time on both Danish and Norwegian every day. It feels great!

Edited by jeff_lindqvist on 14 January 2015 at 12:28am



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