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Moving from B2 to C2

 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
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Cavesa
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 3195 days ago

3277 posts - 6778 votes 
Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1
Studies: Spanish, German, Italian

 
 Message 113 of 177
22 February 2015 at 11:39am | IP Logged 
i may have overlooked a word in sallards post in the middle of the night, sorry about
that. And I find it funny to read offences about my writing style from someone making
the same mistakes and a few of his own, that he is being reproached in most threads by
more people than just me. ;-) I think some of the typical argumentative strategies of
sallard's (such as offending an opponent when he runs out of arguments and cannot just
let it go without "winning") may be a good lead to finding out he needs to change
something in his life and attitude. Not my problem though, I just came here to discuss
the topic.

i think my point was made, just as those of others and there is no reason for me to go
on.

to the OP, get any way of practice eyou find helpful. really, a tutor can be helpful
but it can be a huge waste of money as well.

i am not bashing teachers, i am just presenting years of experience showing that most
teachers and tutors are just not worth the money, that's all. there is no reason to
glorify them as a miraculous solution to your learning problems, many are not people
who take high quality teaching as their lives' mission and something awesome to do.
No, they just attended a very easy second rate degree at university compared to the
technical ones, or none at all, and got a job where you can blame the students for
your failures. It's that easy. Some are not to blame of such attitude and they are not
lazy, they try their best but they are just not talented in teaching or intelligent
enough or whatever else.

Yes, there are good quality tutors out there, who are more than worth it, but you need
to pick them carefully, spend some time searching and try them out. I just recommend
caution. Don't hesitate to get rid of a tutor that doesn't suit you and speak out when
there is something that could be changed to your benefit.

There are alternatives, such as the writing communities. I am glad I am obviously not
the only one in the thread with positive experience with such sources, I would
appreciate a lot tips on such sites in my target languages.

While the fossilized mistakes may be created in various ways, and that would be a very
good topic for a new discussion I'd be eager to read as I've been thinking about the
matter a lot lately, the advanced stage between B2-C2 is exactly the moment to get rid
of them. Because a stupid mistake in something you should definitely know degrades
your output much more than avoiding, or making mistake in, something perceived as
complicated and advanced.
5 persons have voted this message useful



Bakunin
Diglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
outerkhmer.blogspot.
Joined 3316 days ago

531 posts - 1126 votes 
Speaks: German*, Thai
Studies: Khmer

 
 Message 114 of 177
22 February 2015 at 12:45pm | IP Logged 
Cavesa wrote:
i may have overlooked a word in sallards post in the middle of the night, sorry about
that. And I find it funny to read offences about my writing style from someone making
the same mistakes and a few of his own, that he is being reproached in most threads by
more people than just me. ;-) I think some of the typical argumentative strategies of
sallard's (such as offending an opponent when he runs out of arguments and cannot just
let it go without "winning") may be a good lead to finding out he needs to change
something in his life and attitude. Not my problem though, I just came here to discuss
the topic.


Cavesa, with all due respect, your last few "contributions" to the discussion sound terribly arrogant and self-righteous. I find it really off-putting and I would hope that you find back to a more civilized way of expressing your views.

Edited by Bakunin on 22 February 2015 at 12:45pm

3 persons have voted this message useful



s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 3616 days ago

2704 posts - 5424 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 115 of 177
22 February 2015 at 1:23pm | IP Logged 
As tempted as I am to write something nasty, I feel this will only do disservice to the thread and
prolong a tiresome and noxious diatribe. Let's move on, shall we.

To get back to the original question, one idea that came to mind was that of taking an online high level
class in the target language. The key element here of course is that the medium of instruction is the
target language.

For example, thanks to a tip from a HTLALer I have just signed up for an Edx course called Advanced
Spanish Language and Culture. Will I like this? Will it be useful? Will I like the instructor? Who knows.
But I like the concept of being part of a structured and disciplined learning framework. And it's free for
those who do not need the formal credit.

Wouldn't it be great to have something similar aimed specifically at CEFR exam preparation?
1 person has voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 2893 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 116 of 177
22 February 2015 at 1:30pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
Remember that in Katò Lomb's time there wasn't such a variety of
audio available. Mostly just Linguaphone and other audio courses, and native radio.
Not much in between. It's natural that the tutor would be the missing link. I'm sure
she would've enjoyed the LR method if she could've used modern audiobooks.

As for input automatically resulting in output, of course it won't be perfect from the
beginning. But it can be fluent in the technical sense. I was quite fluent the first
time I tried to speak Italian. I wasn't accurate enough, and I know there's still a
lot to work on (I ended up getting more Spanish input and taking it to basic fluency
instead, with a minimal amount of output as well).

[quote]@tarvos, I like comparing myself to Hermione here. She got most of the
"cultural" stuff from books. I don't enjoy speaking to another human being if they
have to go out of their way to help me understand what they are saying (or to
understand me). I'd rather wait until I don't have to fake confidence because I
actually understand what they are saying.


Books and cleverness. There's more to life than books and cleverness. I don't remember
the exact quote, but even Hermione recognised that ;)
2 persons have voted this message useful



patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 2719 days ago

1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 117 of 177
22 February 2015 at 1:46pm | IP Logged 
Bakunin wrote:

Cavesa, with all due respect, your last few "contributions" to the discussion sound terribly arrogant and self-righteous. I find it really off-putting and I would hope that you find back to a more civilized way of expressing your views.


Arrogance and self-righteousness seem to come in all sorts of forms on HTLAL.

I'd recommend if people have problems with posts/posters, rather than creating an off-topic meta-discussion on a thread, they contact the moderators directly. That's what the 'report' button is for.

Edited by patrickwilken on 22 February 2015 at 2:07pm

5 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 4783 days ago

9753 posts - 15776 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 118 of 177
22 February 2015 at 2:29pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
Books and cleverness. There's more to life than books and cleverness. I don't remember the exact quote, but even Hermione recognised that ;)

Bravery and friendship. But that's why she's a Gryffindor, not a Ravenclaw :P
4 persons have voted this message useful



victorhart
Bilingual Tetraglot
Groupie
United States
mandarinexperiment.o
Joined 1893 days ago

66 posts - 155 votes 
Speaks: English*, Portuguese*, Spanish, French
Studies: Mandarin

 
 Message 119 of 177
22 February 2015 at 3:22pm | IP Logged 
I've read many of the posts on this interesting thread, though I confess not all 15
pages. For what it's worth, I have a slightly different way of looking at the
question.

To become proficient in a language (C-level or beyond), you just need to use it. A
LOT. There is an intangible element that is necessary, however, that many people do
not exhibit and that I would like in the future to analyze and be able to describe
better. It has to do with WANTING sufficiently to improve, to be willing to correct
mistakes and change habits. It also has to do with a certain type of interest or
attention to language, that some people may have grown up with, and others many need
to cultivate.

In addition to this intangible attitudinal element, whom and what you interact with in
the language is of great importance. You should do a lot of reading of authentic texts
written by native speakers, preferably of very high quality, such as literature by
celebrated authors. You must listen to native speakers--preferably well educated ones
if you want semantic richness and grammatical accuracy (in the standard version of the
language, since I fully believe in the value and acceptability of alternate grammars).

Lastly, you need to converse with native speakers--again, those who speak with the
grammatical accuracy and semantic breadth you would like to acquire. It makes a huge
difference if those native speakers are willing to correct you on a regular basis. Of
course, you have to be desirous of those corrections and take them in a positive way.

That's where the whole "tutor" question that everyone has been arguing about comes in.
In my mind, it's rather simple. No, you don't need a tutor, if you have other native
speakers who fit the description I gave above and who are willing to engage you in
conversation (and correct you) regularly. Yes, a tutor can be extremely helpful if you
don't already have that in abundance. The person does NOT need to be a professional
tutor in the sense of having a background in linguistics, pedagogy, or anything of the
sort. But he or she should be a professional in the sense of possessing a series of
skills--again, being well educated (if that's the type of language you're after), a
good listener, personable, willing to correct, patient, committed, punctual, and so
forth. Did I mention he or she must be a native speaker?

That's it: you've got to want it, you've got to pay close attention to the language,
you've got to be willing to be corrected and change bad habits, you have to put in
hundreds or perhaps thousands of hours, you need high-quality texts, audio, and
interlocutors, which can be professional tutors or not. If you do all that, you can
not only get to C2, but eventually near-native level, if you so desire.
10 persons have voted this message useful



Arthaey
Groupie
United States
arthaey.com
Joined 3232 days ago

97 posts - 155 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 120 of 177
22 February 2015 at 3:41pm | IP Logged 
victorhart wrote:
That's it: you've got to want it, you've got to pay close attention to the language,
you've got to be willing to be corrected and change bad habits, you have to put in
hundreds or perhaps thousands of hours, you need high-quality texts, audio, and
interlocutors, which can be professional tutors or not. If you do all that, you can
not only get to C2, but eventually near-native level, if you so desire.


That's the long and short of it, I think. No magic bullet. :)


2 persons have voted this message useful



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