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How much time studying vocabulary?

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies Post Reply
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s_allard
Triglot
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Canada
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Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 345 of 350
03 June 2015 at 8:35pm | IP Logged 
I specifically used the term "passive use" to acknowledge the fact that reading a language is a form of use. I'm only
suggesting the clarification to avoid ambiguity when one speaks of using a language in the way that people say they
speak a language but don't really mean that they can talk in the language. Maybe "receptive use" is better because
"passive" has a negative connotation.
2 persons have voted this message useful



patrickwilken
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Germany
radiant-flux.net
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 Message 346 of 350
03 June 2015 at 8:54pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
Maybe "receptive use" is better because
"passive" has a negative connotation.


I much prefer 'productive skills' and 'receptive skills' over the passive/active dichotomy.

Receptive skills are just as active (it's not like the language parts of your brain are in sleep mode when you read - they are very active indeed). The skill set, as we've already discussed on this thread, is just somewhat different. Receptive skills require more vocabulary and less grammar than for language production.



And unless you want to be a bore or a mute, you generally need both to have a conversation.



Edited by patrickwilken on 03 June 2015 at 9:00pm

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Serpent
Octoglot
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Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
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 Message 347 of 350
03 June 2015 at 9:14pm | IP Logged 
Arguably you can't reach C1 comprehension without actually having some productive skills (B1-B2). We may think we're C1 just because we understand most words but you can't truly appreciate the style if you can't write at all yourself.
Or in more positive terms, by the time you've done enough input to be able to appreciate style, you'll be able to write as well. Not perfectly and not at the same level you can read, but you will.
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PeterMollenburg
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AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name
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Studies: FrenchB1

 
 Message 348 of 350
04 June 2015 at 12:19am | IP Logged 
I'm going to play the old and very worn everybody is different when it comes to learning languages card....

...I certainly enjoy courses more than most. I don't enjoy SRS more than most but I still do it more than most
as I believe there is benefit to it. I think it's very clear that reading provides something that courses simply
cannot. This could be called passive or receptive skills (receptive does sound better btw) and there are other
things as Jeffers pointed out such as seeing how a word works in 'the wild' with all (or many) of it's nuances in
meaning and so on. s_allard I also agree- advanced courses have their place.

All in all it seems a mixture is best, but some of us prefer it much more one sided and the general consensus
is that one sided with heavy reading is better than one sided with heavy course work (me). Some will use
very few courses and a LOT of reading (not me)... I think what is needed for me personally is at least daily
exposure to reading to balance my coursework out. Let's say I do 3 hours study, the way I see it I can either
to it one of two ways (for me personally, everyone else will have their ideas I know):

The course heavy way to progress further through courses:

Hour 1 - 15min SRS/45min coursework
Hour 2 - 60min extensive reading/or extensive other activity (eg radio, reading subtitles)
Hour 3 - 15min SRS/45min coursework

or

The balanced rotating approach to get the best balance of both worlds:

Hour 1 - 15min SRS/45min coursework
Hour 2 - 60min extensive reading/extensive other activity (eg radio, reading subtitles)
Any further hours will be a continuing rotation through these two principle hours but the content may change
(ie a 2nd course/ a different book etc)

Edit:
At some point I need to get speaking too!!! I am for the most part completely ignoring this extremely important
aspect of language learning. But let's avoid one iceberg at a time shall we ? ;)


Edited by PeterMollenburg on 04 June 2015 at 12:24am

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s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5190 days ago

2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 349 of 350
04 June 2015 at 12:32am | IP Logged 
patrickwilken wrote:
s_allard wrote:
Maybe "receptive use" is better because
"passive" has a negative connotation.


I much prefer 'productive skills' and 'receptive skills' over the passive/active dichotomy.

Receptive skills are just as active (it's not like the language parts of your brain are in sleep mode when you read -
they are very active indeed). The skill set, as we've already discussed on this thread, is just somewhat different.
Receptive skills require more vocabulary and less grammar than for language production.

...

And unless you want to be a bore or a mute, you generally need both to have a conversation.


The skill sets of productive and receptive language use are different but I don't think that it is because receptive
skills require more vocabulary and less grammar than for language production. Let's start with grammar. The
fundamental difference between grammar knowledge for reading or oral comprehension and grammar
knowledge for speaking and writing is the difference between recognizing the inflected forms and having the
ability to actually produce these inflected forms correctly. In receptive mode, everything is given to you. How
much and how well you can decode this is basically up to you. For example, if you are reading the novels of Jules
Verne in French you will encounter verb forms typical of 19th century literary writing. You may or may not
understand the subtleties of these forms but this doesn't really prevent you from appreciating the work.

Similarly, you don't have to concern yourself with spelling or, in the case of the spoken language, with
pronunciation. It's all there for you.

Actually producing the language doesn't require more grammar than when reading or listening. What is required
is the ability to create the proper sequences of forms. This is a major challenge, and this is why writing and
speaking (well) are so difficult. It's not the quantity of grammar that is the problem, it's the mastery of the
grammar.

Similarly, reading and listening don't require more vocabulary than writing and speaking. It all depends on what
you are "receiving" and what you are "producing". You may read a wide range of texts that require a large
vocabulary, but if you write about a wide range of topics, you will also need a wide vocabulary.
1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
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Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
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 Message 350 of 350
28 June 2015 at 2:27am | IP Logged 
Kató Lomb on (mostly extensive) reading:

Although more efficient means of learning exist, more accessible and obliging ones do not.

edit:
"The relationship that develops between you and the knowledge you obtain [through extensive reading] will be much deeper than if you had consulted the dictionary automatically."

(seriously, just read her book)

Edited by Serpent on 28 June 2015 at 2:32am



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