Register  Login  Active Topics  Maps  

Importance of frequent vs rarer words?

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies Post Reply
81 messages over 11 pages: 13 4 5 6 7 ... 2 ... 10 11 Next >>
Cavesa
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 4769 days ago

3277 posts - 6779 votes 
Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1
Studies: Spanish, German, Italian

 
 Message 9 of 81
07 June 2015 at 1:56am | IP Logged 
Well, you might as well get easily into a situation where a "rare" word will be necessary and you'll wish you had learnt it beforehand. Learning when you already are in the situation is sometimes embarrassing, not practical, sometimes it can cause troubles. It might not be blazer but many other words. I'd say every learner is the best judge of what they are likely to need. Really, the vocabulary you need in a foreign language, as an advanced learner, is quite the same as the one you use in your native language and that means a ton of not that frequent words.

So, my position is quite the oposite: yes, build large vocabulary including "rare" words before you actually need them. At least if you want to speak the language on a higher level than touristy beginner smalltalk.

You will still learn new words when the need arises but there is no point in making your life tougher than necessary by avoiding to learn "rare" vocabulary.

These threads on useful vocabulary actually brought me to some thinking about my vocabulary sources and learning. I might be in a little bit similar situation to that of Lucie. Despite having passed DALF C2, I was just surprised by some "new" vocabulary in the tennis related articles on Le Monde a few minutes ago. And it was not sport terminology, more like general passionate sport talk. Sure I got the overall meaning from context but I wouldn't use the words actively and I wouldn't give the exact translation of one or two. I think I might try something that emerged on another of these threads. When the exam time is over, I will go through a dictionary and just anki all the words I find potentially useful to know actively that I haven't been using actively so far.

P.S. The truth is I don't know all the sports vocabulary (or the passionate sport comments' vocabulary) in Czech either. One does not simply stop learning new words in any language. Ever.
3 persons have voted this message useful



s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5190 days ago

2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 10 of 81
07 June 2015 at 5:41am | IP Logged 
The question isn't whether one needs a certain vocabulary or not; the question is how to acquire this vocabulary.
Do we build a large vocabulary before we need it or do we build it as we encounter it? What do we do in our
native language? Most of our technical vocabulary comes from our training or education in our profession and in
our pastimes or passions.

I have limited interest in automobiles and I don't own a car. My knowledge of automobile terminology is very
limited to things that are of general knowledge. If you show me a modern car motor, I could not name most of
the parts. If I read a book on modern car engines, I will spontaneously acquire an authentic knowledge of the
vocabulary, i.e. I know what the words refer to.

On the other hand, if, instead of reading about how can engines work I read a dictionary of automobile engine
terminology, I'll acquire a bunch of words without the underlying knowledge. This means that when I do read a
book on car engines, I'll recognize the words but still not understand what is being said.

This is the classic problem of translators who are not technical specialists of the subject they have to translate.
How well can you understand something that you don't really understand because you don't have any technical
training in the field? Of course you rely on technical dictionaries. But even then you don't understand the
technical terms in your own language. The end result is something we see often, although less and less today,
translations that do not sound natural because they were written by someone foreign to the field.

Similarly, I know little about tennis. I just read this in today's Guardian:

A massive forehand return gave her a break in the fourth game and, after easing through the set, she broke twice
on her way to that lead in the second. Out of nowhere, nerves crept in and, after two double faults gave Safarova
one break back, another one handed her the other. Williams regained her poise to break for 6-5 and at 30-15
she was two points from victory. But Safarova, sensing her chance, went for broke and forced a tie-break before
winning it 7-2 to earn a decider.


Every word here is familiar to me, but I only have a vague understanding of the real meaning here. The dictionary
tells me that "tie-break" is "jeu décisif" en French. But I still don't know what the French term refers to. But I'm
not really interested in tennis, so I'm not really going to bother studying the game in order to understand the
words here. I also know that I can't understand the words until I understand the game.


Edited by s_allard on 07 June 2015 at 1:43pm

1 person has voted this message useful



Cavesa
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 4769 days ago

3277 posts - 6779 votes 
Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1
Studies: Spanish, German, Italian

 
 Message 11 of 81
07 June 2015 at 7:20am | IP Logged 
Well, I was in the middle of a longer post but there is no point, I'll rather try to be brief.

The question how to learn the vocabulary has been already discussed, Lucie made two threads and there were many more. Various kinds of experience were presented. I recommend Iversen's log and guide as a great source of inspiration, other interesting sources might be logs and posts by Emk or smallwhite. Surely many others I just cannot remember now as well

What kinds of vocabulary is a learner going to need, that has been discussed too.

You don't necesarily need to spontaneously acquire vocabulary about car engines to learn the few words that are likely to be useful but still aren't likely to be pointed out too much in most learner aimed resources. Just having looked up "a tire" in a dictionary may prove extremely useful once you get stuck on the road, calling for assistance.

Yeah, translators have this problem with translating unknown terminology. That's why there is such a demand for translators who are as well professionals in the field, not just general scholars with a technical dictionary.

You might not need to ever speak about tennis, but I'd say most people are likely to meet a sports fan so some general sport vocabulary may still prove useful to acquire, at least passively, from articles like that.
2 persons have voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 4467 days ago

5310 posts - 9399 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 12 of 81
07 June 2015 at 10:21am | IP Logged 
Fifteen-love. Cavesa to serve.

Frequency in itself isn't a very relevant factor. Frequency in context of your life is
the thing you want to organize. I don't have to know what a pneumatic drill is, but if
I'm going to work at an engineering plant, I best figure out the names for the power
tools. But it still might be useful to say "engineering" because, hey, I did study it.
2 persons have voted this message useful



s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5190 days ago

2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 13 of 81
07 June 2015 at 2:23pm | IP Logged 
Yesterday I bought a new cordless power drill that came with 100 accessories. As can be imagined, on the box
there were many technical terms to describe the many things inside. I immediately learned or relearned these
terms by associating them with the pictures. When I read the manual I'm sure I'll learn how these terms are used.
The neat thing is that the manual is in English, French and Spanish. This is going to be fantastic for my technical
Spanish,

I'll be learning the Spanish vocabulary of the power drill by reading the manual with the drill and the accessories
in front of me. Prior to this the only word I knew in this area was taladro 'drill'. I don't have the slightest idea how
the dozens of other tools in the store are called in Spanish. Of course, if I get a job in the store and I claim to
speak Spanish, I'd certainly take a crash course in hardware terminology because I don't want to make a fool of
myself.

What I think some people are referring to here is the amount of basic technical terminology that one acquires just
by growing up surrounded by so much technology. We all know a little terminology about a lot of things and a
lot of terminology about our areas of specialty. So, for example, most of us know the basics of automobile
terminology but very few of us are automotive engineers. We know the basic terminology related to cooking in
the home but, again, most of us are not chefs.

The big problem we have in foreign languages is that we have not acquired spontaneously all this basic technical
vocabulary of everyday life. This is what thematic vocabulary books and visual dictionaries are about. You see a
picture of a kitchen and all the implements in it. All of this is wonderful and certainly highly recommended but
the fundamental problem remains: You are learning terminology without actually experiencing the use of this
terminology.

This is why immersion is so wonderful. You get to experience the language. If you got a job in a Spanish-
speaking hardware store, I'm sure that within a week you will acquire all the technical vocabulary necessary.
2 persons have voted this message useful



Cavesa
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 4769 days ago

3277 posts - 6779 votes 
Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1
Studies: Spanish, German, Italian

 
 Message 14 of 81
07 June 2015 at 3:10pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
Yesterday I bought a new cordless power drill that came with 100 accessories. As can be imagined, on the box there were many technical terms to escribe the many things inside. I immediately learned or relearned these terms by associating them with the pictures. When I read the manual I'm sure I'll learn how these terms are used. The neat thing is that the manual is in English, French and Spanish. This is going to be fantastic for my technical Spanish,

I'll be learning the Spanish vocabulary of the power drill by reading the manual with the drill and the accessories in front of me. Prior to this the only word I knew in this area was taladro 'drill'. I don't have the slightest idea how the dozens of other tools in the store are called in Spanish. Of course, if I get a job in the store and I claim to speak Spanish, I'd certainly take a crash course in hardware terminology because I don't want to make a fool of myself.

What I think some people are referring to here is the amount of basic technical terminology that one acquires just by growing up surrounded by so much technology. We all know a little terminology about a lot of things and a lot of terminology about our areas of specialty. So, for example, most of us know the basics of automobile terminology but very few of us are automotive engineers. We know the basic terminology related to cooking in the home but, again, most of us are not chefs.

The big problem we have in foreign languages is that we have not acquired spontaneously all this basic technical vocabulary of everyday life. This is what thematic vocabulary books and visual dictionaries are about. You see a picture of a kitchen and all the implements in it. All of this is wonderful and certainly highly recommended but the fundamental problem remains: You are learning terminology without actually experiencing the use of this terminology.

This is why immersion is so wonderful. You get to experience the language. If you got a job in a Spanish-speaking hardware store, I'm sure that within a week you will acquire all the technical vocabulary necessary.


That's exactly what I'm talking about. Learning vocabulary in advance in order not to make a fool of oneself or not to make an urgent or embarassing situation unnecessarily harder. When you apply for a job, you know you are gonna be expected to know the wares. But in most situations, you are not told beforehand, that's why I am all for learning vocabulary before you need it. Examples of words I once wished I had learnt beforehand (in various languages, real situations, no theories and fictional job interviews): heating, hygienic pad, lightbulb, to dilute. Sure, I looked them up when the need arised, but the situations could have gone much smoother with knowledge of these basic words. Especially as I needed to look up as well other, less predictable, words at the same time.

Yes, exactly, a learner needs to somehow overcome the fact of not having grown up surrounded by the vocabulary presented by vocabualry builders, picture dictionaries and so on. But really, how much "personal experience" do you need to learn many everyday items? Heh, many young natives won't have a deep emotional tie to every word and item in the kitchen. Most girls are unlikely to have "experienced" car parts and their names. Many people living in the city have never seen any garden tool with their own eyes. And there could be many more examples. And the people still know the vocabulary and will use it when appropriate. Just looking at a picture in a book, an example sentence, memorising the word, that is often enough.

Yeah, immersion is awesome but most people just cannot take their luggage and get subsequently hired in several various shops in the country, than in a hospital and among the clerks and on a farm, just to experience all the vocabulary they could have just sufficiently learnt from a book.

I am all for immersion, for tons of books, tv series and so on, to get you ready for the reality of speaking the language. I've just been advocating these vocabulary builders as a great complement.
3 persons have voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 4467 days ago

5310 posts - 9399 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 15 of 81
08 June 2015 at 2:48am | IP Logged 
Yeah, but you only need to visit them to force you to know the vocab - you don't need to
work there.
1 person has voted this message useful



s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5190 days ago

2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 16 of 81
08 June 2015 at 12:37pm | IP Logged 
If I may repeat myself, the question isn't whether it's good to know all the words you will ever need in advance or
not. Of course, it would be great to pick up a book or a newspaper article and never have to look up words in a
dictionary. Or to be able to go into a hardware store and know the name for every thing in sight. The question is
how do you get there.

There are basically two approaches. One is to wait until the need arises and the other is to explicitly learn
vocabulary in advance just in case. I tend to take the first position but I also believe that in the value of using
thematic or structured vocabulary books and pictorial dictionaries, as I said in a previous post. I currently use a
great book for Spanish vocabulary, Vocabulaire de l'espagnol moderne. I randomly opened a chapter on La
familia that presents the vocabulary related to talking about the family. There's a whole chapter on personal
hygiene and clothing. The chapter on sports has some basic vocabulary on all the major sports. All great stuff.

I also use a visual dictionary in four languages. This is great for learning the names of objects.

Between these two tools, I can acquire a ton of vocabulary. But how do you use them? My edition of the Visual
Dictionary has 1,056 pages plus the index. Should I attempt to memorize every word on every page just in case I
meet someone who wants to speak about the topic? I doubt it.

What everybody does, I imagine, is to go to the subjects that interest them. I'm not particularly interested in the
terminology of sailing ships or the anatomy of the human heart; so, I'll skip those pages. Obviously, other people
find these pages very useful.

Similarly, I would never attempt to memorize all the words in my Spanish vocabulary book just because I may
need them some day. I dip in and out as the need and my interests guide me. I may end up knowing all the words
in the book. Who knows.

I have said here many times that vocabulary takes care of itself; it expands with exposure and need. And good
tools will help.

I think people should spend far more time on grammar and learning how to decode and encode the structure of
the language. But that's another debate.




1 person has voted this message useful



This discussion contains 81 messages over 11 pages: << Prev 13 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11  Next >>


Post ReplyPost New Topic Printable version Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page was generated in 0.3438 seconds.


DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved
No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization.